The MxU Podcast

Collin:
[0:00] You can't lead from a place that you've never been. I think talent can get you

Collin:
[0:03] in the door, but your character is really what keeps you there.

Spencer:
[0:05] This place isn't serving me anymore. This place, whatever. And me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me.

Collin:
[0:10] Are you being faithful to what God called you to today? Not to what he called you to tomorrow in five years, but like, are you being obedient today? If my success of the service is how many people were engaged or didn't look at me like, you're looking at the wrong things. Like you're gauging the wrong things.

Dillan:
[0:31] All right. What's up? We are here in Knoxville, Tennessee at Severe Heights Church. Good friend of ours, Colin O'Neill. And I, I want to just, I asked you earlier what your title was here, but I want you to recap that for everyone listening and watching to tell us what you do and we'll get into how you do, but tell us, tell us what your role is.

Collin:
[0:51] So, uh, my primary role is on Sundays, everything that happens in our worship room. I kind of have a hand in, um, planning, all that stuff. And then we have a college ministry that we have on Sunday nights as well. So we also have a North campus. So I'll run here on main campus, make sure North campus is running well. And then we also run our big college ministry called the law on Sunday nights.

Spencer:
[1:13] So you're, you're wearing a lot of hats. You're doing a lot around here. Like most probably. I mean, it's, it's people joke about the other duties as assigned. It's just kind of what happens in ministry.

Collin:
[1:24] You just, it's kind of a catch all in a good way though.

Dillan:
[1:27] Yeah. When'd you start here?

Collin:
[1:30] It's crazy. Um, I was at another church and I started here August 1st of 2020 and I was here for three days and then we got shut down for a month. The problem is we had like a super spreader in our staff and I didn't have COVID, but like everybody had COVID. So they were like, everybody go home for two weeks. Um, it turned out being a little bit longer than that. So it was kind of the second surge of COVID. So I got here, had two days in my office, was starting my brand new job. And my boss is like, go home. And I'm like, what am I supposed to do? And he's like, well, just start writing curriculum and like, figure out what you're going to do. And I was the student guy, the student worship guy at the time. We had two worship pastors. And really in that time, like, I'm really passionate about like making sure that a, we always have all of these different spots filled, like people is kind of my superpower. And so I created this system to basically have a pipeline that we can get all of our people who are serving, when they are interested in serving in our worship ministry here, what that looks like for them to get involved, be able to then have spaces for them to grow. If they're not ready to be in our main programs. And so I basically create a pipeline from basically kids up to adults to And that time, which honestly, like it was really helpful. And I still use a lot of that stuff today.

Spencer:
[2:52] Colin, have you, have you known that you, uh, have you always known that you wanted to do ministry full-time?

Collin:
[2:57] That's a crazy question. My dad, I grew up as a pastor's kid. My dad was a worship pastor. And so, um, I got involved in worship really young. Like I started drumming at church when I was four. And so it was always really something I was around. My mom played piano. My dad was a worship pastor. um bro you.

Spencer:
[3:16] Were drumming at

Collin:
[3:17] Four yeah like i really was and i lost a lot of chops but like.

Dillan:
[3:21] Do you have video

Collin:
[3:22] I don't have a video but there is a picture of me and you can barely see me over the drums yeah and the pastor came up to me and was like hey you need to get off we're about to start service i was like no i'm drumming today that's awesome and so that's killer uh, my dad took me into the choir room an hour before service and we did a choir practice and i played whatever it was and i have super bad adhd so my dad was like if you look at me this entire service i'll give you a dollar like, and so every week we had this thing for like years where it'd be like if i look at you and you're not looking at me i'm not giving you a dollar so it was like that's just kind of how it was, and so i just grew up in that and then my dad um, as soon as somebody wouldn't show up like i just was like here here's an hour you can learn how to play this set yeah and then i just kind of grew up and playing a ton of instruments but just really got thrown to the fire super young so, it's funny because i started traveling with a bunch of different worship bands and bands when i was in high school, but i had seen my dad walk through a lot of stuff so i had a lot of church ptsd stuff, um was kind of like i'm cool with that but i didn't want to be involved and so i actually got accepted into college as pre-med wow um i was in my mind, 17 18 year old colin was like i would be a pediatrician and then i'll be able to tour on the weekends and.

Spencer:
[4:42] That that'd be dope it

Collin:
[4:44] Would be it was sweet i'm like dude i'll be rich and get to do the things i want to do and my senior year the summer after my senior year so i'd already graduated from high school.

Collin:
[4:54] I was playing up at this camp in Michigan and I, I remember sitting down on the beach being like, I'm about to start college and God's like, dude, you're having a Jonah moment. Like you are running to something that you were never supposed to do. And I'd always kind of known that I wanted to do ministry. Like I love people. I love, I love the local church, but I had a lot of hurt with the local church really early on. So it kind of like really jaded me in a lot of ways, just watching my dad walk through some really terrible situations. And I remember like even sitting down as like a 13 year old in the middle of like committee meetings with people just standing up and yelling at each other. And I was like, I want no part of that. Yeah. And so my senior year, God really like, again, probably a month before I started was like, hey, like this is a Jonah moment for you. And showed up to college literally the first day changed my major. My dad was my professor in worship, which was really weird. I was homeschooled. So like, I'm the only person who can say I was homeschooled all the way through high school. And then my, my dad was also my teacher in college. So like, I've been homeschooled.

Dillan:
[6:00] Did he look at you in college and be like, I'll give you a dollar.

Collin:
[6:03] It wasn't like that.

Dillan:
[6:04] The whole time.

Collin:
[6:05] It was, dude, college was weird though. Like all of my professors had known me for a long time. So like it helped me a lot. I learned to grow a lot because I just got a lot thrown at me. Yeah. Really quickly where it was like, you need to be able to turn this around and adapt to this. And so.

Spencer:
[6:22] It's really interesting hearing you talk about getting started at an early age. Like Dylan started in worship ministry at a very early age. I started. Not four.

Dillan:
[6:30] Not four. But very early age.

Spencer:
[6:33] Yes. We also see this generational impact. Like my mom was a worship pastor for many years. And I share how I slept under pews watching worship practice. And it's like some things were just ingrained in me at a very young age. And you see that in a lot of people we talk to on this podcast, but I, I, I'm really curious. Do you guys think that's still happening today? I hope so. Are we seeing a lot of development?

Dillan:
[6:58] Well, as you said that, I was thinking, huh, the generational thing. I mean, Jet, my daughter, who's 12, she started leading worship this year. And it's like, it's cool to see, you know, 12-year-old. That's even before I started. But watching her get up there and I can see it in her, go a ministry route already, which is cool. So it's happening in my family.

Spencer:
[7:20] Yeah. Yeah, it's something I'm just noticing more. And I get really excited when I see worship ministries that put a ton of emphasis on their youth ministry worship. Like for me in youth ministry, my like idols at that time were the ones leading worship. Like it wasn't. Yeah, it's interesting. I just, I'm seeing, I'm talking to a lot of associate worship pastors and some worship pastors who are like, oh yeah, youth is like a completely separate ministry that we don't touch. How do you guys handle that here? Who does youth?

Collin:
[7:53] So I have another associate who's underneath me, who's just a rock star. Like he just is so passionate about leading with such energy, but it's also like it's energy and depth meeting. Yeah.

Spencer:
[8:06] Does he do the weekend as well with you?

Collin:
[8:07] He leads at North Campus. Okay. So we get to do a lot of stuff. We plan a lot together.

Collin:
[8:14] And I think I was just at a conference and the guy was talking. He's like, how many of you actually started in a worship band? And probably half the room raised their hand. And so I think there's an amazing part of like the discipleship process to get people who are like younger. I think that there's a tendency now that the church is like, hey, we're going to toss the keys to the young talented kid. And it doesn't go well because there's no character to back any of the talent. And so like, I think talent can get you in the door, but your character is really what keeps you there. And so being able to take these younger people who are young and talented and be able to help walk with them and disciple them into like, hey, if this is something you want to do and this is what you're called to, like, we're going to help you get there. But it's going to take a little bit longer than you want for us to toss the keys to you. Because I think probably for all of us, like. Young talented you look cool like here's the keys and you're like dude i'm this is my life is a wreck or i'm still in the middle of this or i'm still struggling with this and perfection and like is is not a thing that we can ever get to but like at least becoming like a mature leader and being like hey my character is matching what i'm actually showing you like, being able to realize all of my faults really early on in ministry like being able to walk with people who are like hey man, you have this in you. And I think that we're going to like really work to like help you get to the point where you're like, you are leading because that's who you are. And that's because it's what you do. Does that make sense?

Spencer:
[9:44] That's a really common thread that's been pulled on this podcast recently to age when we get into ministry at what point? Cause when you start young, like my story was, I started young. So I'm like, I don't want to go to college. I don't want to do anything other than this. And everybody I look up to is doing it at a very early age. Do you feel like that has In worship ministry, for you personally, do you feel like your age has helped you get in the door places, being a young guy?

Collin:
[10:10] I think yes and no. I think it can be helpful. And I think that there's sometimes it's like, hey, man, like we are looking for someone who's been battle tested and seasoned through hard times. I think, there's just something different about having some time underneath you and walking through some crazy situations with people that you just can see things a little bit different rather than a wide-eyed, bushy-tailed kid who's like, I'm just ready to play guitar and make a difference. And I think ministry is so beautiful because we do as leaders get to walk through people's lives. Like they invite us into those hard places. And I always tell people that you can't lead from a place that you've never been. Like you cannot take someone to somewhere that you have also not already personally been to. And so I think, yes, I've probably gotten some opportunities because I was young and talented. And it was like, hey, yes, like this is you. But like, again, I think 10 years ago, 12 years ago, Colin's character was not, at a spot where it's like, hey, man, like, this is you, like, you're going to do it. And now to the point where it's like, instead of something that was like, hey, dude, this is what I deserve. Now it's like, oh, dude, I'm actually honored to be here. Like I'm honored that I get this opportunity to lead these people because I, I couldn't have done

Collin:
[11:34] it without God getting me through these seasons or these things.

Dillan:
[11:37] What was the shift for you when you said like, now I know. Like now, cause you mentioned earlier a very, very important statement when you said you may have the look, you may be cool. Yeah. You may, you may feel like you're the guy. You there's something missing

Collin:
[11:55] I think god has an amazing way of redeeming everything that we go through um, for me god had to destroy my pride, and a lot of times it was me sitting in a second chair that felt like it was on fire while i was watching people lead where i wanted to be and a lot of it is in the patience and the waiting and a passage that has been massive for me is in Isaiah 30, 18, it says, the Lord waits to be gracious to you. He exalts himself to show mercy to you. Our God is a God of justice, blessed is a man who waits on the Lord. And again, when you are not the one having to make the decision, it is easy to be like, I would have done it this way. But you learn so much from leading in a second chair. That when you actually get to the point where you're like, oh, I'm, I'm the first chair. You have to look back at the second chair. And I think God did a lot with me while I was in that second chair. And I would look at things and be like, oh, dude, I would have totally done this this way. Or why are we not doing these things?

Dillan:
[13:02] I mean, you're speaking to a lot of people right now. I mean, we've all sat in that chair.

Collin:
[13:05] Yeah. And it is weird because sometimes like there's a book called Leading from the Second Chair that really changed a lot of my thinking, but a lot of it was just like, God, what are you trying to teach me right now? Like, if my posture is I have an open hands and an open heart to what you're calling me to, then that means I'm in this season for a reason. And what do I need to learn in this season to prepare me for my next season and the next thing I step into? And so it was kind of this season of like, okay, God, like, A, I feel called to ministry. I feel called to lead your people i want to be able to disciple your people but like i've been doing this with my own agenda of like this is my end goal rather than being like god what what do you actually have for me like and uh, god in his kindness and his faithfulness like he just puts the right people at the right time in your life to be like, i'm going to speak into this and i'm going to speak into you because i see these things and sometimes you just got to sit in the second so in the second spot that's on fire yeah grass doesn't grow on the mountaintops it grows in the valley and like some of the deepest growth that we have is really during the hard times, and then when you look at it to the mountaintop you look down and be like oh dude the valley is actually beautiful and.

Collin:
[14:25] Uh instead of sitting in the valley we're so easy to be like dude i want the mountaintop like i just want to be up there when really like there's so much beauty happening in the valley so i think god did a lot of things in my own personal life but just like professionally that was like, A lot of prayers that I had been praying for a long time, like God didn't answer. And then he did answer them. But a lot of it was just surrounding myself with people to be like, I want to be you when I get older. Like, I want my family to look like your family when I'm older. How did you get there? And just surrounding yourself with wise voices really was like the big thing to be like, oh, like I've been looking at this completely wrong.

Dillan:
[15:03] How so for you mentorship having a coach having someone speaking into your life has been vital vital for you

Collin:
[15:16] Even accountability where.

Dillan:
[15:17] Would you be today vulnerability

Collin:
[15:21] If you didn't.

Dillan:
[15:21] Have that more

Collin:
[15:23] Probably wouldn't be here yeah probably more tattooed um no i think like i would be worried about the kingdom of colin rather than the kingdom of god yeah like.

Spencer:
[15:34] Is there a point that you can look back and go man i would have taken a left turn if i didn't have that person look at me in the face and shake me at that time like in your minute like you're because we can all look at this In our ministry experience, if I just did that thing different, it wouldn't have gone that way. But I'm curious, are there points where you look back and go, thank God that happened, or else it would have gone that way?

Collin:
[16:07] I feel like I have so many Jonah moments in my heart that God is so kind to be like, dude, just a massive check in my spirit. But I think a lot of that comes to like, dude, if you're leading from an empty cup in a place where you and Jesus are not on the same page, like you will make a lot of decisions like that. And I think surrounding myself with people that have always been better than me. And I always try to be the dumbest person in a room. Yeah.

Spencer:
[16:33] Are you doing that? Are you sure? So I don't want to interrupt, but like, are you surrounding yourself? Are these people on staff? Are these people in your city? Are these people?

Collin:
[16:39] There's some in my city, some I've just known for a long time, or I've just respected for a really long time. So it is helpful for me to call people that have known me for a long time, to be like, Colin does these things, and hard times Colin does this. Yeah and so being able to be like i'm walking in this situation i don't know how to handle that and they're like well this is what you normally do and you're like well you're right like, these are people that had just known me outside of i think it's so important for us to have people outside of the churches we're serving into.

Spencer:
[17:10] Yeah i was just thinking that

Collin:
[17:11] Like i really do and it's not because like i don't love the people here because i do but there's just a lot of people that are like, when you're in the middle of something it's hard to see outside of something, and you can get a bigger picture from people who are familiar with it but are not involved to really be able to speak a lot of life into things that are really hard or things that are really difficult you're like oh this is exactly how i need to look at this but i've had a lot of those.

Spencer:
[17:38] Yeah there's a lot of guys i'll talk to guys and gals who will say man it's just really difficult for me to get what i'm looking for from my pastor i'm like well they're also your boss And this may be unpopular for me to say, but I'm like, it's a different dynamic. The dynamic you have with your pastor as a staff member on your church is different than the attendee that comes and gets pastored, taught by your pastor. And to expect that same dynamic is just unrealistic. They're human. They're your boss. They're the one that's going to say, hey, this needs to get better. There needs to be improvement there. They're going to be the one that has to have hard professional conversations with you. And so having people outside the church that can hold you accountable, but also be a sounding board, some that you can go to and you're like, man, I'm messed up. How do I handle this? How should I approach this situation with so-and-so? And not just having that one person who's also your oversight in your ministry.

Collin:
[18:38] Well, I think it's important. Like, I think for me, like I have different people in different aspects of life that I'll be like, dude, you financially are like where I want to be. Like, how do I get advice on this? Like, you're a phenomenal leader. You don't even work at a church, but you're a CEO of a really healthy company. Like, how do I handle this? And so being able to get like outside perspectives, because you can't look at one person and be like, dude, I want to be exactly like you because we all fall short. Having a wide variety of people that are like, I look up to you in this area because none of those people will hit like all of those areas, but going to the one person who's like, dude, like you are a stud when it comes to leading a team. Like, how do you, how do you create healthy culture?

Collin:
[19:18] And what can I take and adapt to be able to fit where I'm exactly where I'm at?

Dillan:
[19:21] You know, you've done an incredible job sharing your Like you're from four to where you are now. Yeah. Like you've spoke on mentorship, coaching, calling, character, guidance, vision, mission. But I would be curious, as much as you're willing to share, struggles, what are some like pain points that you've experienced, not just here, but in other churches that have really shaken you? Not maybe not shaking your calling, but like have felt like, man, this is not the right place for me. I need to fix something or I need to go have a conversation with someone to fix this. So any, any stories come to mind that would be around that?

Collin:
[20:09] A healthy staff is important to me. Like I want to have teammates that are, we're all on the same mission together. Like I think that there are times that culture is always changing so it's this thing of like you either adapt or you don't react and, then culture happens and culture is like it's not only what you like celebrate but it's also what you tolerate, and so like even in the middle of those things i think, because at churches you have people come and you have people go and culture is always changing like when culture is lacking it's more of like how do we step up and fix the culture like what are we, what are we aiming at what are we celebrating what are we tolerating what are we not celebrating what are we not tolerating and when you have really clear, guidelines on like hey this is how we want to be this is how it needs to feel like if you don't have direction in those areas or it's like leaning towards a, an unhealthy work environment and this could be at any church not just here but like.

Dillan:
[21:16] But who determines it's unhealthy because your boss your pastor may think it's the best culture yeah they may think it's the most healthy organization and you may be thinking not you personally but someone may be thinking we're not even close to that how do i deal with that i think

Collin:
[21:32] A lot of it is really honest conversations and i think i think you can have a healthy church with unhealthy teams that's what's interesting about any business any church is like you can have a thriving, company but you can have one team that's on fire and you're like how do we deal with the one fire like how do we realign everybody to get back into the alignment with where we're going as a as an entire staff um and so being able to see a lot of those things it's like oh we were, on a different planet like Like, how do we have those conversations? A lot of it is just honesty. And it takes a lot of trust and a lot of like bravery at some points. Like if you are going before someone who doesn't see the things that you see, like you can go at it in a way that is like the goal of this conversation is health. Like I'm not attacking anybody. I'm not attacking a department. Like establishing a goal in a conversation has been huge for me because if I'm coming into a conversation where I'm like, I'm mad, or I'm just being petty, like that's not a good conversation or a place to come into. So even like working with myself to be like, how do I come into this conversation? The goal of this conversation is health. The goal of our conversation is for us to get better. And I'm going to share some things from my perspective that it feels like we're out of alignment and I'm boots on the ground. So I have a little bit more of a, and I think.

Dillan:
[22:58] Honestly- What do you do when that person looks at you and goes, Colin, I disagree.

Collin:
[23:32] Sure. I think, I think prayer has been massive for me. Um, when I've had conversations.

Spencer:
[23:40] There's going to be a lot of people that check out right after you just said that, by the way. And I think like that's, it's really important to call out because I think there's gonna be somebody listening going, okay, here's that answer. But like, if you're listening to this, actually listen to this because I think it's, it's, there's a lot of wisdom in what you're about to say.

Collin:
[23:58] I think prayer is the work, man. Like my prayer life has changed a lot because I've seen Jesus do a lot through prayer. So before I even go to those meetings that I have, most of the time, those things have been covered in prayer for weeks. Um, I don't go to my coworkers and be like, Hey, let's stir the pot. We all need to just gang up and do this thing. I think being able to sit under leadership where it's like, Hey, I brought things to you. You might disagree, but I would then in that conversation be like, I would challenge you in the next 30 days to just, just think through the things I've seen or the things I've said to you. I've been praying about this conversation. I've talked to mentors about this conversation that are outside of this place. I'm not trying to cause a coup, but I do just, if you could just look through the things I've talked about and just think about it for the next 30 days and watch it, like that would be my first thing to your boss. The second thing I would be is like, God is at a different timing than you are.

Collin:
[24:56] And that's really hard for us in a society where it's like, I can get an Amazon package here in 30 minutes if I hit it, plus $3.99 delivery. I can go to any place I want to and get something I want immediately. And God's timetable is so different and he's kind in that. And things were so much better because I just sat and was like, I'm just going to sit here. And I've made my opinions known. I'm going to sit under my leadership and I'm just going to be obedient. And I'm not saying that in every situation you should be like, I'm going to sit under this leadership for sitting under the leadership's sake, because maybe it is you, maybe it is your problem. Like sometimes we look at the local churches like.

Collin:
[25:38] They have this vision. I'm at a very different philosophical thing. And it could be a fit thing. Like, I'm not saying you need to sit in it for forever because sometimes it's like, dude, we're actually at an impasse here. And Paul and Barnabas actually split and they were better for it. And so being able to sit under that and be like, hey, like, is this is this a serious thing where like the longevity of my career here or my serving here, is going to hit an impasse? And I think you can even say those in those meetings, too. Again, coming into those meetings with a lot of trust and a lot of honesty, but also a lot of prayer and just even saying, like, I want to do well here. And these are some things that are helping me not do well here.

Spencer:
[26:19] It's good i'm finding that so i totally agree with what you're saying i'm putting myself in some other people's shoes that i've get to talk to every day in the church and what i'm finding is that a lot of people hear that and they go yeah that sounds good but i just don't care enough anymore to even really take that approach i'm trying to figure out how to encourage people to to maybe feel to get unstuck in their ways and that because it's like they hear what you just said and it's like Not going to work, you know, and because usually like the right path is the longer path. It's the path that provides less instant gratification.

Collin:
[27:05] Sure.

Spencer:
[27:05] It provides less dopamine. I look at myself like there was a year that I went home and just complained to my wife every night about the environment I was in. Complaining about this and that. And like, it was like the, the people I was supposed to be praying over the people I was supposed to be coming to and having honest conversations really became like my enemies. Sure. And I see that a lot. For some reason, I see it a lot in worship and tech ministry. Maybe it's in other areas of the church, but I see it a lot in worship and tech ministry. Would you guys agree? I would.

Dillan:
[27:37] And I would agree specifically on, because maybe you show up looking the part and we hire you for that first. And you hit on that earlier, and we've talked about that a million times. Us as leaders in the worship-

Spencer:
[27:53] Like we're just hiring shells

Dillan:
[27:54] Of- Us as leaders in the worship ministry, production ministry, are we diving into character or are we just seeing someone who's talented and looks the part and they're called to ministry? And we're going to decide that for you. Yeah. And we realize after the fact, we've got the wrong guys, the wrong girls. These people are not, fit for this ministry

Spencer:
[28:18] Yeah so like would you say and when you hear me kind of share that would you go yeah that person just should not be in ministry

Dillan:
[28:24] I don't think no no not necessarily because i would add that person's not going to be happy anywhere they go outside of ministry i think they work at a bank and be miserable because they're not it's not it's not their way um they live on an amazon time package you know model which is incredible i'm gonna steal that probably um like they forget they're on god's timing you're not just on god's timing when you work in ministry right and they're gonna struggle with that i struggle with that you know so it's it's um i think they need to pray i mean i mean how many people when you said pray earlier were not thinking oh yeah i should probably do that going into a meeting where there's going to be tension because i'm whether you lay it down softly or not that individual who leads the organization or leads that team or is in charge of culture is going to be offended in some way

Spencer:
[29:28] We serve a lot of tech teams with mxu that's like the beauty of what we get to do and and we love this that we get to bring worship and tech together in this way

Collin:
[29:36] As it should.

Spencer:
[29:37] Be yeah but i see this as a massive divide in on that team where like worship pastors like hey man let's pray about this like yes we're tackling this issue and that issue and providing the pastoral response that you just provided and the tech person's like logistically minded which i can empathize with this like i'm a bit of a hybrid between the two and tech person is like bro what's got what's that gonna like no i know the solution right the solution is like they're wrong i'm right or like this is broken this sucks that needs to happen that way why are we praying about this you know what i'm saying like and they're just like this environment they and they get kind of in this lackadaisical and then this is what we're finding right now a lot in churches production people are like screw this i'm just gonna like get my job done in 10 hours a week and then go contract.

Collin:
[30:32] Go contract.

Spencer:
[30:33] I'm out of here. Like, no, I'm over it. And we see that a lot right now.

Collin:
[30:41] Yeah.

Dillan:
[30:42] I don't know. It's got to be better elsewhere, you know? And we forget, you know? I'm walking in those shoes. A lot of our crew are currently walking in those shoes or currently leaving full-time ministry to go full-time freelancing.

Spencer:
[30:57] Because they never wanted to be in full-time ministry in the first place.

Dillan:
[30:59] Maybe.

Spencer:
[31:01] But I can't know that about everybody.

Dillan:
[31:04] I know that I did. I did 16 years full-time ministry and I still almost every day think about going back to full-time ministry. Like it is still something that's constantly tugging on my heart.

Spencer:
[31:13] Yeah.

Dillan:
[31:14] I don't know how many that exist for other people.

Spencer:
[31:16] Yeah. It's to each his own. Yeah. But it is wild, the fad. And there's so many people in our community that are like, I got to go. This place isn't serving me anymore. This place, whatever. and me me me

Dillan:
[31:31] Me me me

Spencer:
[31:32] Me me me and now it's such a uh i see it really plaguing the production community more yeah than the worship community

Dillan:
[31:41] It's hard for a colin who's a great lead vocal here at this church or worship leader worship director to just leave the church market and go and tour the world

Spencer:
[31:51] Okay that's gonna be a lot this is this is gonna be a really really i'm gonna put you on the spot con and and answer how you like but i was fascinated have you guys heard brandon lake's new country song yes okay How many worship leaders, first of all, do you think, look at that video of him driving around his ranch on his motorcycle, singing this banger country song and go, gosh, I'm so envious of this guy.

Dillan:
[32:20] Or that can be me.

Spencer:
[32:21] That could be me. Do you ever struggle with that? Like, man, what if I could go do like a music career outside of church?

Collin:
[32:34] Uh yeah I do but I think like it's funny about four years ago.

Collin:
[32:43] I was really wrestling through everything that we're talking about and it was in that season that God was teaching me a lot about myself and like what am what am I being called to what are the things that I'm for and I was on the tour bus with an artist, they were just like hey you want to come be our lead guitar player for her forever. And I was like, in the middle of the season where again, leading in a chair on fire, it was like, it was uncomfortable. And it was like, dude, this, this pasture looks really green. Like go do the tour thing, be back, do whatever I want to with my family. And literally like, God was like, dude, like, and again, a lot of Jonah moments in my life. It's like, I heard the audible voice of God saying, this is a Jonah moment. And I said, no. And then immediately after that, I got a call that was like, Hey, we actually need you to lead worship for the rest of the services at all of our campuses and stuff. And so like, I think when those things happen, I think my prayer during that whole season was God, like Psalm 51 created me a clean heart, like mold me, use me, fill me. Like I want to be used for the things that you want me to be in and make it really clear. And I think that there's something beautiful about consistency see in a church. I think now, like.

Collin:
[34:00] Average lifespan of a worship leader is like maybe 16 months. The average life of a high school pastor is like nine months. Like it is easy for us to jump around to places that make us feel good because I like being the chosen or the golden boy for this amount of time.

Dillan:
[34:18] It's that honeymoon stage, right? It is.

Collin:
[34:20] And then when that falls, it's like, ah, cool. I'm not feeling the same way that I did. And when you look at the Psalms, when you look at like heroes of the faith, like Abraham waited a long time to have a son and finally had the son. And then God's like, hey, I'm asking that you give this to me.

Spencer:
[34:38] Yeah.

Collin:
[34:39] And in boldness, without knowing the outcome, he said, yes, do you know what? I'm going to lay my son down and give him back to you. And God in his provision and in his kindness provided a Rams to take that sacrifice. But like Abraham was consistently praying for the same thing over and over and over again. And I just read this book called Pray Big by Alistair Begg. Shout out to him because he's amazing. but he was like there's something sweet about paying praying the same prayers over and over and over again that grows your faith and so i think, with us as creatives who like looking at toys and the things that the church down the road is doing and being like i wish i was there or i could be doing that like, i think there's something that because we have a mentality that's like dude i'm going to come in and go to the biggest church i possibly can be or i'm going to go do this. And I think God has a different calling on everybody's life. And I think really, if you were to sit with Jesus and be like, God, what are you calling me to? If I'm doing the Abraham thing and offering up what I've been praying for and asking for, and you answer that prayer, amazing. But if you don't answer that prayer, amazing. And you have something better for me.

Collin:
[35:44] So yes, I have gone through those times of struggling, but I think, even in the middle of that is like, where, whose kingdom am I trying to build? And most of the time when I have like earthly things of like, this is where I need to be, or this is where I could be, or this is what I should be doing right now. Like I'm trying to build my own kingdom out of this thing. And really putting it through a lens of like, if I'm being filled and I'm spending time with Jesus to be like, God, what do you have for me today? Like one of my mentors told me a long time ago, I was like, are you being faithful to what God called you to today? Not to what he called you to tomorrow in five years, but like, are you being obedient today? And being able to have those honest conversations with God, like my Tacoma has turned into a prayer closet. I don't listen to music. I just talk to Jesus about what I'm struggling with. And it is in those times I'm praying those prayers consistently that God has been so faithful to answer those prayers or not answer those prayers. And so again, I think that we do have this mentality of like, dude, those lights are flashier than mine can't wait to be there or this is not as cool as that when really god's like dude i have a certain plan for you colin i have a certain plan for you dylan and spencer like, are you being obedient with open hands to what i've called you to yeah rather than looking at what everything else what everybody else has and not being like thankful for the things that you have gotten to do yeah.

Spencer:
[37:07] Are you on social media

Collin:
[37:08] I am on social media.

Spencer:
[37:09] How do you navigate that when you are i'm sure because of what you do you're just fed all day long how do you navigate that

Collin:
[37:21] I think I don't, I've never really had like a, a gratitude problem or like not being like happy with where I'm at. Like, I think God's given me that as a gift because I think if I didn't have that, I would be in a very different place. So like, I'm very thankful for the things I get to do. I love being able to see what other people are doing, taking the things that I'm like, that's really good and leaving the rest.

Collin:
[37:52] I think god has really just like given me and walked with me graciously through so many things that like, a lot of my videos are like black gospel things that i'm like i'll never be able to pull that chop off but i'd love to be able to do it like i think for me like i've really had to look at social media as like am i letting this like, tell me what i need to be doing and like looking at the church down the road to be like oh yeah you guys did that so that means we've got to do it better, or is it like am i being obedient to be like dude i can see what they did and i think that that is amazing, but i don't know if that's what's right for me because i don't know if that's where our people need to go yeah, it's good um but it is easy to fall into the trap of oh dude they just did this thing this opener was amazing like this video is legit and i think that we can pull things from a lot of other people to be like how do we take those things and use it as a tool rather than like, the goal to be like how do i take those things that they're doing, how do i best take that idea and then shape it to be able to lead our people to where they're comfortable with and ready to go to as well.

Spencer:
[38:59] Yeah it's like asking that question when you see that video do you wish that your picture was the profile picture next to that video or do you wish that like The congregation that got to experience that was your congregation because of how powerful it was impacting you. Like there's this comparison game of like, it's the identity thing of, I wish that was my product versus, man, that would be so cool to bless our church with.

Dillan:
[39:31] Well, and my leader would never let me do that. Or I don't have the teams to pull that off.

Spencer:
[39:38] How about the money?

Dillan:
[39:39] I don't have the resources. we don't have that drummer. You know, gosh, that comparison game in ministry is, it's horrible.

Collin:
[39:48] It's a killer of joy.

Dillan:
[39:49] It's horrible. And unfortunately, we know that happens a lot.

Collin:
[39:52] Yeah.

Dillan:
[39:53] We got to stop doing that. It's toxic.

Spencer:
[39:55] Yeah, I think anybody could relate to that, right? I can totally relate to that. In any position you're in, whether you're a church tech leader, you're a worship pastor, you're a business owner, whatever. I mean, I see that. Now in the realm of AI, everyone's vibe coding software applications and i'm like what no yeah we do that yeah what are you doing like

Dillan:
[40:16] We do that with

Spencer:
[40:17] Humans yeah like and in in comparison you're totally right it is a joy killer yeah it'll just absolutely take your joy and then you start asking crazy questions yeah

Collin:
[40:29] Like why why is god not blessing me yeah he's.

Spencer:
[40:31] Blessing this why is yeah why is god not blessing me or maybe i'm not supposed to be doing this

Dillan:
[40:36] That's what i'm gonna

Collin:
[40:37] Say yeah maybe or is there something wrong with me.

Spencer:
[40:39] Yeah, there's something wrong with me or there's something wrong with them. There's something...

Spencer:
[40:46] I'm seeing this so much right now in our community.

Collin:
[40:49] I think, dude, we were talking, I'm going to go on a rabbit trail because we were literally talking about this yesterday with one of our associates. I think when we put the ball in our court to get people engaged, we will always fall short. But again, if prayer is the work and we're praying that God, if you're going to do this thing, like I'm just throwing out a bunch of seeds and letting you do it. I'm not responsible for those things to grow because only things can grow in you. But I am going to be a leader and like leading, Hey, this is where we're going to go today. Like, but if my success of the service is how many people were engaged or didn't look at me like, or the frozen chosen. And I'm looking at that and like, dude, that service was awful. But what you don't see is like, there's a person who needed that, that day. And there's these people that are walking through this, that needed that. And like being able to then give those services back to Jesus and say, God, this is what you've put on my heart for this week to really connect with the message that we have one clear message in the entirety of our service.

Collin:
[41:54] When it gets to those things that you don't have that Hillsong moment, that it doesn't feel like, oh my gosh, this is really hard. I think it's in those moments, God speaks to you a lot to be like, dude, you're being obedient and you have to trust me to do the work. You have to trust me to move into the room. And when you're doing it in your own strength and you're looking for like, hey, how engaged are they today? Like you're looking at the wrong things like you're gauging the wrong things.

Dillan:
[42:20] That's so good. I feel like we forget the things we pray for Because we're always moving on to the next thing.

Collin:
[42:27] Well, we use prayer as a transition.

Spencer:
[42:29] Also, how much is our community praying?

Dillan:
[42:32] Right. Sure. We talked about that earlier. Yeah.

Spencer:
[42:34] It's like, forget the things to pray for. Forget to pray.

Dillan:
[42:37] We're forgetting to pray. We're forgetting the things we're praying for. God, in my world, send me clients. He provides a plethora of clients, but they're all the wrong clients.

Collin:
[42:47] In my mind. This is not the one I want to.

Dillan:
[42:49] God, fill the doors with people who are broken. You have a Sunday full of people, but your band falls apart on stage and you forget. God, send us one person who needs you in this moment right now. He sends that one person that you just mentioned, but you're distracted on something else because you're moved on to the next thing. We're forgetting the things we're praying for. God, provide me new equipment. We need resources to reach more people. That's the wrong equipment.

Spencer:
[43:14] It's also the attitude in which we pray because I'll talk to churches and say, man we've been praying for six months that god would provide new equipment and i'm like has it ever dawned on you that you don't need new equipment

Collin:
[43:24] Just steward yours a little bit yeah yeah.

Spencer:
[43:26] And so your idea of what you need like you're just playing little g god you're like hey i have the plan this is why we always go back to the whole genie concept with god and people always but like that is how we pray sometimes we're like we need this thing this is our plan god and we need you to bless it we need you to make this happen now

Collin:
[43:46] My buddy chuck um, told me this story that changed the way I view everything. And I talk about it with my staff all the time. He went to Sierra Leone and they had like 3000 church planters in Africa. And they were like, Hey, we're going to have a service. And so Chuck being the one American in the room was like, so what's the plan? What are we doing? And they all looked at him and were like, what do you mean? He's like, we, we got to pray about this thing. And then they, then he used an analogy that they said to him he's like american churches are whiteboard churches he's like, they will write down everything in the service to the flow of exactly how it's supposed to be and then on the back half be like god please bless this thing that we've already put together rather than inviting men at the beginning for me, we all have different time constraints we have traffic patterns we have all these things that we have to be aware of as if we're planning services but like.

Collin:
[44:39] Are we just throwing things together because it's a play that it works or we're actually seeking Jews to be like, God, we are expecting you to move? Before we even go to the whiteboard or the PCO or any of that, are we actually seeking to be like, God, where are you calling us this week? I think there's this really big push to be spontaneous and to have that, and I think that that is amazing. But I also think that God has given you a certain amount of time in your services that he's still going to move, even if you don't have this seven-minute spontaneous moment where it's just like, we're going to let it breathe, and you should let it breathe. I think worship there, sometimes it should be silent. But like, if you look back at how Gregorian chants used to be, it used to be really quiet. It was very dull and it was very like, hey, God's going to meet us here. And I think it is easy for us to like blow these things out of the water and be like, we're going to have this production thing. And I think there's a big pull now. It is like, hey, man, did your services flow? How was it spontaneous? And I think like, if you are given the time constraints of this, Jesus is still going to move there. But you have to give him that full time to be like, God, what are we supposed to do in this? How are we going to flow with this together? And so I think to your point, again, we have it all written down and then ask God, God, we've already done it. Please bless us. Rather than be like, are we genuinely seeking an interaction with Jesus the way he wants to be interacted with, not how we think we need to meet him today?

Dillan:
[46:02] Okay yeah that's great

Spencer:
[46:03] Yeah yeah and and not doing that uh it really ties in what we were talking about with comparison too because it's like well they're never that church they've never done the five minutes of silence we can't do that right it's like we're way more interested in what others would think rather than what god might have for us in our ministry and what we're going to do in our church on sunday yeah um So we could talk a lot more, but this has been really good. I think it's a good place to end it. If you have made it this far and you're watching, thanks for joining us. If you want to learn more about Severe Heights, we'll link information in the description below. And if you want to learn more about MXU or the Weekend Ready Playbook, we'll put that in the description below as well. Dude, thanks for joining us.

Collin:
[46:47] Dude, thanks for having me.

Spencer:
[46:49] Yeah, it's really good.

Collin:
[46:50] Just a couple of dudes hanging, talking, talking.

Spencer:
[46:53] It's exactly right. It's a good time. We'll see you all next time on the MXU Podcast.