The MxU Podcast

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Worship.

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People sometimes speak
a very different language.

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I struggled very deeply
when I left the platform

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I felt like I had taken
second class citizen.

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I felt like I was
less than, yeah,

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how do you develop
a common language,

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whether they're on

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worship side or the tech side,
they can know what we mean

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when we say, my mix
feels pretty harsh.

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role in the same way that
the person with the microphone

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is communicating the gospel,
the person with the fader,

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the person twisting the knob
and pushing

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the button has an opportunity
to communicate the gospel.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Worship.

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People sometimes speak
a very different language.

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Can we agree?

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I mean, I'm a worship person.
I feel like I'm.

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I definitely speak
a different language.

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You're somewhat of a hybrid.

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I guess I'm a hybrid.
I think we're all hybrids.

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I think we could
all we could all kind of play.

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Play both sides of the coin.

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I started in this sort of
I mean, my background

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is more musical
than technical.

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I came into this

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with a musicians perspective
rather than a solely

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technical perspective.

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So I feel like one thing
that served me really well

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over the course of my career

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is being able to speak
both languages,

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to be able to speak Muzo,
and to be able to speak tech.

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But for me, I'm

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light on the tech side
in terms of just my bent.

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Yeah,
and there's some engineers,

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whether it's video,

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audio or lighting,
where they're just so like

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all about the gear
and all about signal flow

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and all about the specs
and all the things.

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One of the funniest examples
that I've, I've said before

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is like back in the Tomlin
days, our drummer,

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who was an incredible
musician, really great

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and pretty technical
like he was in terms of skill,

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like he was really kind
of loved to build things

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and loved to be a craftsman
and all that stuff.

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So you would think
he would be super technical?

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He would.

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He said to our monitor
engineer, one day

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he goes, man, everything
sounds okay, but can you make

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can you make my mics
feel a little more organic?

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And our engineer, who's very

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like linear ones
and zeros, binary is like

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does not compute,
does not compute.

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Like do you need
sent me add to db at two k or.

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I don't even know what
that means I know exactly,

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but it's like sometimes
they're using verbiage that

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it's like,

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you know,

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they'll post something online

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and it'll be some random
esoteric,

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poetic thing and you're like,
what does that even mean?

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Yeah.

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And then

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there's a person
on the other end of that

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who has to kind of try
to interpret. Yeah.

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And so it's like,

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how do you develop
a common language, how do you

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when even,
even when you use words

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that you should understand
like what is

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what's the difference
between muddy and warm?

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What's the difference between
harsh and bright?

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What's the difference

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between aggressive
and whatever it's like?

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Just to be able to develop
a lexicon of terms

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that everybody on the team,
whether they're

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on the worship side
or the tech side,

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they can know what we mean
when we say,

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my mix feels pretty harsh.

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Yeah. What do you feel?

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Where are you on the spectrum?

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We're all on the spectrum,
by the way.

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So we'll kind of.

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Yeah, we're just fine
just to touch.

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Definitely creative music.

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I mean, I production, as
anybody listens to the podcast

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would know that production
was never my primary focus.

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People ask me all the time.

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What's your specialty
audio, video or lighting?

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And I'm like, I just change it
up every time.

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Core discipline.

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Yeah,

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you you're a great person
to having this discussion

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because sometimes
you actually do

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kind of represent a tease,

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but sometimes you can be
a little bit dismissive of,

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oh, production guys,
I want to talk about gear

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and blah,
blah, blah, blah blah, right?

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Like you, would you agree?

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I'm not being too hard on you
on that way.

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No, which is no way.

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So it goes both ways, right?

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And sometimes I think that

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you maybe don't necessarily
know how to speak the.

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Yeah, you just said it.

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You're more on the creative
side. Yeah.

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I mean, when I first started
to worship,

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worship background
and creative background for

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if I did seven, 16
years of full time ministry,

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you know, ten
of that was leading worship.

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So everything outside of

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that would have been
this producing production role

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when I went from worship
to on the platform

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to behind the scenes
production,

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that was a major transition
in my life

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from state to state, church
to church.

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Those production guys there,
I'm sure they loved it.

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They probably just thought to,

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who is this guy
he doesn't know

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left from right now
he's our new production boss.

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He doesn't know
anything about.

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And they were right
at that time.

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Plug any of these cables.

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And if he had to,

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I knew right away
that I was in trouble

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because I was like,
how do I win production guys?

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Because they have zero respect
for this skinny jeans, faux

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hawk wearing

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kid coming in from Knoxville
to tell us how to now do.

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Yeah. Production.

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So, yeah,
I would definitely lean more

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towards, you know, today
I'm a lot like Jeff.

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I feel like the reason
why I've been able to have a,

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you know,

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a pivotal role in events
and production is

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because I know what it's like
to be on the platform.

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I know what those guys
and girls are going through.

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Like, I can I can look at them
and just by their eyes,

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by their tone, by their
the weather carry themselves.

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Something is off.

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Yeah.

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You know,

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and so I've been able

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to either prevent that or fix
that because

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I know where they're at.

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And then now I know
how to take that and translate

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that to crew and production,
people and say,

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hey, you know,
we need to adjust, look, tilt,

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figure this out from a, from
even someone from an audience,

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audience standpoint.

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So yeah, I'm kind of,

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you know, for somebody
who's leading

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both sides of the equation,
if you're at a smaller to

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mid-sized church and you have
it's usually the worship

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pastor who's responsible
for all of that.

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You know,
it's really hard for them

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if they're not both
and if they're not

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a bit of a unicorn
in that way,

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they're going to
they're going to

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default to communicating
one way or the other.

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And so it's important,

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I think, for them to have
just the awareness of that,

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you know, to know like,
oh man, I'm, I'm really great

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in kind of a songwriting slash

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studio slash creative

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setting because of the way
I think about music

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or the way
I feel about an event.

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But I've got to figure out
either

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who is going to translate
for me, or figure out how to

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develop a way to communicate
with the tech side,

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because it is, in a way,

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two different sides
of the same language,

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but in a way
it's a different language.

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So it's like how

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how are you going
to find a way to not just,

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you know,

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get things
done, but a way to endear and

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come alongside
and make the folks

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that are opposite
of your tendency

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to feel like

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they're actually
part of the team

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and that they're
welcomed in you.

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I think you do.
You have to have.

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So if I'm coming in as a
as a weekend creative director

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or a some church is called
a producer now or whatever,

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I'm like that blend role.

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I'm over production and
worship and I come together.

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I think immediately
you have to define.

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We knew right away
when I went to that church

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that because I

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lacked the technical knowledge

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and I wasn't
willing to learn it either.

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I made it clear,

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like I'm not willing
to learn technical stuff.

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So if you need me to come

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be a technical individual,
then I'm not.

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I'm not a good hire
for your position.

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So I was very upfront with
that because it's important,

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I think, to operate
out of your strengths

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rather than rather than manage
your weakness. 100%.

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I'm letting you know
from the get

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if you want me to come
and fix your systems.

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I'm not that guy.

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Yeah,

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so they knew
what they were hiring

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and I knew what I was
walking into.

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But what did I do?

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Right when I got there,
we hired that technical person

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because that person
was not going to answer me,

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and they were going to lead
the whole

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production department.

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So the guys that were very
technical

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could go to a technical leader
that that wasn't me.

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Same for worship.

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So on the worship
side of things, yes,

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I'm more knowledgeable
about worship,

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but it was in music
and instruments

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and all that stuff.

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Song arrangements,
you name it.

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But still
I had to have a music director

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or someone that could keep
the respect

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of all of our musicians
and worship staff to have

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that dotted line to or that,
you know,

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that direct line
for leadership.

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Anyways, that,

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that that is the role
I had to do

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because I could not win
both those departments

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and keep everybody happy

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and lead that size of staff
trying to be the

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what we see a lot in church.

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I'll just do it all myself
and try to look the best

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and be the be the most
knowledgeable in all areas.

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Don't approach
anything that way.

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Omit those weaknesses
or the areas that you don't.

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You're not an expert in

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and put the right people
in those seats.

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Yeah.

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Why does it feel so?

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We're in it.

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We're immersed in this worship
and tech community

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and the culture
that comes with that.

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Why does it feel
so hypersensitive,

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this this relationship

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between worship and tech
and being able to communicate

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to the worship team?

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Because I see this like,
everywhere.

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I mean, it really just
comes down to communication,

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communication,
marriages, communication

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in the workplace.

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But for some reason
this tends to be one that

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and I don't want to make like
bad guys good guys camps I.

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But why why is this
still plaguing the community

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and we I'll, I'll just say
real fast.

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We've talked about this we've
talked about this before.

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This is this is not new to the
to the podcast here.

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I will say
I struggled personally,

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very deeply
when I left the platform

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because I felt like
it was a I'm

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on the production team now.

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I felt like I had taken
second class citizen.

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I felt like I was
less than, yeah,

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I felt like I was demoted
and I battled this for years.

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I remember the I remember
I came back home to Knoxville.

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I took a, so I was in a quote
unquote production role

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at my church in Vegas,
and I left that church,

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came back to Knoxville,
and I was a quote

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unquote production role.

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They were both called either

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weekend creative directors
or or producers either.

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Either way, I was over

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production at both
those at both these churches.

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And I remember
a volunteer walked up to me.

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I was just introduced
as a new production guy.

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I think that's what they said,

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hey, this is doing
our new production guy.

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And that just eked me
to death.

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And then within seconds,

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a volunteer
wanted to put me in my place,

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who was on stage
as a guitar player singer,

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and he walked into me
with his battery

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pack, handed me
his pack and said, hey,

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can you change the batteries
in this place?

00:10:28:19 - 00:10:30:21
That was how
he introduce himself to me.

00:10:30:21 - 00:10:32:20
And so for years
I struggled that

00:10:32:20 - 00:10:34:16
I was a demoted individual

00:10:34:16 - 00:10:37:14
because I felt like I needed
to go more towards leadership,

00:10:37:14 - 00:10:39:04
which the leadership
opportunities for me

00:10:39:04 - 00:10:41:05
in my season
life was more in production.

00:10:41:05 - 00:10:43:11
Okay.
Can we pause for a second?

00:10:44:11 - 00:10:46:12
What you just shared
is incredibly vulnerable.

00:10:46:12 - 00:10:50:05
And can we name that?

00:10:50:05 - 00:10:53:07
That's that's pride
100% right, 100% pride,

00:10:53:08 - 00:10:54:06
arrogance, pride.

00:10:54:06 - 00:10:56:05
And I don't say that to be
we all, but it's on

00:10:56:05 - 00:10:57:06
both of your partners
identity.

00:10:57:06 - 00:10:59:01
It's your part and it's
the guitar players part.

00:10:59:01 - 00:11:01:04
My identity was wrapped up
in the platform.

00:11:01:04 - 00:11:02:09
Yeah, that was my identity.

00:11:02:09 - 00:11:03:23
So you're taking me off
of what?

00:11:03:23 - 00:11:07:04
Everything I know, you know,

00:11:07:06 - 00:11:08:14
I mean, nobody took me off
anything.

00:11:08:14 - 00:11:10:10
I'd made the decision
to leave the platform,

00:11:10:10 - 00:11:12:12
and I knew
it was the right move to make.

00:11:12:12 - 00:11:13:13
But I still struggle with it

00:11:13:13 - 00:11:14:21
deeply
because it was my identity.

00:11:14:21 - 00:11:16:19
But by default,
the platform comes

00:11:16:19 - 00:11:18:15
with a certain level
of status.

00:11:18:15 - 00:11:20:17
Yeah. And it's just. It's
just the way it is.

00:11:20:17 - 00:11:23:01
You're up there on stage
in front of lights.

00:11:23:01 - 00:11:25:01
You're physically higher
than everybody else.

00:11:25:01 - 00:11:26:16
You're under the lights,
you've got

00:11:26:16 - 00:11:28:10
a microphone in front of you.

00:11:28:10 - 00:11:30:02
It's like you're, you know.

00:11:30:02 - 00:11:31:12
So there is a reality of that.

00:11:31:12 - 00:11:33:20
People coming into the lobby.
You're getting recognized.

00:11:33:20 - 00:11:35:18
Hey, great job today.
You did killer job.

00:11:35:18 - 00:11:37:21
You sounded great. You look
great. Everything's great.

00:11:37:21 - 00:11:39:21
Your team is awesome.
You're doing such a great job.

00:11:39:21 - 00:11:41:10
You know,
you people on platform

00:11:41:10 - 00:11:42:19
get this, this,

00:11:42:19 - 00:11:45:15
they start building this like,
oh, yeah, I feel great.

00:11:45:15 - 00:11:46:19
And then you lose it.

00:11:46:19 - 00:11:49:02
You literally can't ignore
those things, right? Yeah.

00:11:49:02 - 00:11:50:19
As a human. Yeah.

00:11:50:19 - 00:11:52:16
You cannot ignore my call.

00:11:52:16 - 00:11:54:02
Tom is later I come in

00:11:54:02 - 00:11:56:00
and the production
team is already there.

00:11:56:00 - 00:11:57:20
They've already been working.
And, you know, I put my bad.

00:11:57:20 - 00:11:59:16
I mean, I'm like,
it is doing something.

00:11:59:16 - 00:12:01:10
It is doing something
for like the

00:12:01:10 - 00:12:03:02
the chemical balance of me.

00:12:03:02 - 00:12:04:18
Yeah. It's just 100%.

00:12:04:18 - 00:12:07:08
So then that leads
that gives you

00:12:07:08 - 00:12:09:00
what does that give you
in my personal experience

00:12:09:00 - 00:12:11:12
that gives you confidence
status.

00:12:11:12 - 00:12:13:11
It gives you confidence.
You walk a little taller.

00:12:13:11 - 00:12:13:18
Yeah.

00:12:13:18 - 00:12:14:21
People tell you and you're

00:12:14:21 - 00:12:17:06
but it also gives you
insecurity.

00:12:17:06 - 00:12:17:13
Yeah.

00:12:17:13 - 00:12:21:04
Because there is
a point at which you realize,

00:12:22:09 - 00:12:25:06
you know
what if they really knew.

00:12:25:06 - 00:12:25:21
Yeah.

00:12:25:21 - 00:12:26:20
Like if they knew

00:12:26:20 - 00:12:28:06
what was going
through my head right now

00:12:28:06 - 00:12:29:19
or if they knew about
the fight,

00:12:29:19 - 00:12:32:10
I got in with my wife,
or if they knew

00:12:32:10 - 00:12:34:00
the habit that I'm trying to

00:12:34:00 - 00:12:35:22
not disclose
on the side or whatever.

00:12:35:22 - 00:12:37:20
And there is this thing
of performative,

00:12:37:20 - 00:12:41:15
performative thing where it's
like, man, I think so.

00:12:41:15 - 00:12:43:23
I think obviously
all those things are at play.

00:12:43:23 - 00:12:45:21
All of those
things are factors.

00:12:45:21 - 00:12:49:19
So if we unpack this,
we can go kind of category

00:12:49:19 - 00:12:50:13
by category.

00:12:50:13 - 00:12:55:14
I think at the highest level,
there has to be a leader

00:12:56:00 - 00:12:59:09
that more than just in name
only because

00:12:59:09 - 00:13:00:14
everybody can say this.

00:13:00:14 - 00:13:03:14
But very few places,
I think, actually believe it

00:13:03:14 - 00:13:07:04
and mean it to be true
that we are one team

00:13:07:05 - 00:13:12:12
and that we are all tasked
with creating an environment

00:13:12:12 - 00:13:14:13
where people can experience
ways to

00:13:14:13 - 00:13:16:05
take a step in their faith,

00:13:16:05 - 00:13:19:00
where we can usher people
into the actual presence

00:13:19:00 - 00:13:22:03
of God in the Holy Spirit,
and help people

00:13:22:22 - 00:13:27:07
be led to move toward
what he has for them.

00:13:27:14 - 00:13:29:18
And that can happen
through a video.

00:13:29:18 - 00:13:31:12
It can happen through the

00:13:31:12 - 00:13:33:22
the rhythm of the slides
and enter.

00:13:33:22 - 00:13:35:14
It can happen
through an audio mix.

00:13:35:14 - 00:13:38:03
It can happen over
a microphone from the stage.

00:13:38:03 - 00:13:41:06
But each of us
has a priestly role

00:13:41:06 - 00:13:42:18
that we're carrying
in the same way

00:13:42:18 - 00:13:44:08
that the Old Testament priests

00:13:44:08 - 00:13:46:14
prepared the place
for the people of God

00:13:46:14 - 00:13:48:12
to experience
the presence of God.

00:13:48:12 - 00:13:51:12
Yeah, we're doing the same
thing in a modern context.

00:13:51:16 - 00:13:54:23
And in Exodus
it says that Bezalel and

00:13:55:19 - 00:13:59:17
were filled with the Spirit
of God to do the tasks

00:13:59:17 - 00:14:01:17
that were in front of them,
to build the temple,

00:14:01:17 - 00:14:05:14
to build the structures,
to do the rugs and the

00:14:05:18 - 00:14:07:14
filigree
and all of the ornaments

00:14:07:14 - 00:14:08:23
and all the stuff that it took

00:14:08:23 - 00:14:11:03
to make the tabernacle
what it was.

00:14:11:03 - 00:14:13:03
And it's
the first time in the Bible

00:14:13:03 - 00:14:14:16
that anybody is mentioned

00:14:14:16 - 00:14:16:20
as being filled
with the Spirit of God.

00:14:16:20 - 00:14:18:15
It was the production team

00:14:18:15 - 00:14:20:08
that was filled
with God's Spirit

00:14:20:08 - 00:14:21:20
to do what
they were tasked to do.

00:14:21:20 - 00:14:23:18
So I think the first thing
we have to do,

00:14:23:18 - 00:14:26:04
and I would say this
to any worship pastor,

00:14:26:04 - 00:14:28:17
any senior leader,
any executive pastor

00:14:28:17 - 00:14:29:23
listening to this,

00:14:29:23 - 00:14:33:17
if we can put our teams
under that context,

00:14:33:19 - 00:14:36:00
it would tear down
just by default.

00:14:36:00 - 00:14:37:16
It would tear down
some of this stuff

00:14:37:16 - 00:14:40:19
instead of just a general nod
at the end of a big event to

00:14:40:20 - 00:14:41:14
say, hey,

00:14:41:14 - 00:14:43:14
shout out to our production
folks, because they sure

00:14:43:14 - 00:14:46:01
do a great job around here.
It's like, no, man.

00:14:46:01 - 00:14:48:05
They're a crucial role
in the same way

00:14:48:05 - 00:14:49:17
that the person with
the microphone

00:14:49:17 - 00:14:54:02
is communicating the gospel,
the person with the fader,

00:14:54:03 - 00:14:55:22
the person twisting the knob
and pushing

00:14:55:22 - 00:14:58:22
the button has an opportunity
to communicate the gospel.

00:14:59:02 - 00:14:59:21
Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:59:21 - 00:15:03:18
So what you just said is so in
line with a post recently

00:15:03:18 - 00:15:05:10
that went a little bit viral
in our community.

00:15:05:10 - 00:15:07:17
Alex Seeley,
did you see that real of Alex?

00:15:07:17 - 00:15:09:14
I think so
she was talking about how,

00:15:09:14 - 00:15:11:20
you know, production carries
this Levitical role.

00:15:11:20 - 00:15:13:23
Like we and

00:15:15:12 - 00:15:17:01
we talked
about this a little bit

00:15:17:01 - 00:15:18:07
and there's two sides of this.

00:15:18:07 - 00:15:21:00
So what she said is like spot
on. Okay.

00:15:21:00 - 00:15:22:19
I thought it was
I thought it was incredible.

00:15:22:19 - 00:15:25:19
But what was fascinating
to me,

00:15:26:01 - 00:15:27:10
and this is where
I really want

00:15:27:10 - 00:15:29:09
I think we could dive
into this conversation

00:15:29:09 - 00:15:31:14
quite deeply,
but what you just said

00:15:31:14 - 00:15:34:05
is, is so powerful
and so true, Jeff.

00:15:34:05 - 00:15:36:00
But we get caught in this rut.

00:15:36:00 - 00:15:38:13
Everybody was sharing
that reel out there like,

00:15:38:13 - 00:15:40:02
check this out
and why did they share it?

00:15:40:02 - 00:15:40:23
And I thought
it was interesting

00:15:40:23 - 00:15:41:17
because like the hook of

00:15:41:17 - 00:15:45:14
that reel was basically
production people.

00:15:45:14 - 00:15:47:11
If your production people are
grumpy, it's your fault.

00:15:47:11 - 00:15:49:14
As a leader.

00:15:49:14 - 00:15:52:13
That was like,
that is what spread

00:15:52:13 - 00:15:55:13
and everybody was reposting it

00:15:55:22 - 00:15:58:07
and there was so much truth
in what the video,

00:15:58:07 - 00:16:02:08
but it was just the hook of it
was, if your production

00:16:02:08 - 00:16:05:19
people are grumpy leader,
that's your fault.

00:16:05:20 - 00:16:07:07
She was speaking
to a roomful of leaders

00:16:07:07 - 00:16:07:21
for context

00:16:07:21 - 00:16:10:21
of those listening,
and everybody was like,

00:16:10:21 - 00:16:12:09
I got to tell the world
about this.

00:16:12:09 - 00:16:15:04
That said something
really interesting to me.

00:16:15:04 - 00:16:17:02
It does
say something interesting.

00:16:18:13 - 00:16:20:02
If I could just push back on

00:16:20:02 - 00:16:23:02
her or them or whoever
reacted to that a little bit.

00:16:23:04 - 00:16:26:12
I would say, if you're grumpy,
it's your own damn fault

00:16:26:20 - 00:16:30:02
because you're not
seeing your identity.

00:16:30:13 - 00:16:31:14
Know what I'm saying?

00:16:31:14 - 00:16:33:05
To Dylan's
point about identity,

00:16:33:05 - 00:16:34:11
it's like I have an

00:16:34:11 - 00:16:38:04
opportunity to be used by God
in the way that I serve.

00:16:38:05 - 00:16:41:11
Yeah, it's not this thing
coming down at me now.

00:16:41:11 - 00:16:42:01
It is.

00:16:42:01 - 00:16:43:04
If the guitar player is

00:16:43:04 - 00:16:44:21
being a butt
and just coming up to you,

00:16:44:21 - 00:16:46:14
not knowing your name
and saying, hey,

00:16:46:14 - 00:16:47:19
changes battery for me,

00:16:47:19 - 00:16:49:13
that's a totally different
conversation.

00:16:49:13 - 00:16:51:07
That guy needs
to be off the platform

00:16:51:07 - 00:16:54:06
because he doesn't understand
that he's a part of a team

00:16:54:06 - 00:16:58:13
that's bigger than his ability
to play C, F, and G.

00:16:58:14 - 00:16:59:17
It's like, no,

00:16:59:17 - 00:17:00:21
man, if you're not in this

00:17:00:21 - 00:17:02:18
for the right reasons
to be a part of this thing

00:17:02:18 - 00:17:05:08
that's moving people, sorry,
you're taking a break.

00:17:05:08 - 00:17:06:14
Send them to the bench.

00:17:06:14 - 00:17:10:06
I don't have I mean,
and I know we've got limited

00:17:10:06 - 00:17:12:09
people and all that,
and the guy can be a jerk

00:17:12:09 - 00:17:14:06
and we still need him
because he's really good.

00:17:14:06 - 00:17:15:21
That is the wrong mindset.

00:17:15:21 - 00:17:17:08
In the same way
that it's wrong

00:17:17:08 - 00:17:18:16
to have this guy mixing

00:17:18:16 - 00:17:21:04
because he's an all star mixer
that worked on a record.

00:17:21:04 - 00:17:22:17
It's like if he's an ass,

00:17:22:17 - 00:17:24:16
he doesn't
need to be in the seat.

00:17:24:16 - 00:17:25:17
This guy's hot and bothered.

00:17:25:17 - 00:17:29:10
Sorry, this is a big soapbox
for me and I agree.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:33:03
You know, I, I thought about
reposting the Alex video.

00:17:33:03 - 00:17:34:07
I decided not to. You did.

00:17:34:07 - 00:17:35:11
Actually, I did not repost it.

00:17:35:11 - 00:17:38:00
You did, I did not,
and I just said it to me.

00:17:38:00 - 00:17:40:14
No, I didn't know you did.
I didn't repost it.

00:17:40:14 - 00:17:44:13
I was going to, but I didn't,
and I, I don't think I did.

00:17:45:01 - 00:17:47:01
I didn't requested
don't don't do it to me.

00:17:47:01 - 00:17:47:22
I didn't repost it.

00:17:47:22 - 00:17:51:00
And the reason
why I didn't repost it

00:17:51:00 - 00:17:53:02
because I was leaning
a little bit towards you.

00:17:53:02 - 00:17:55:14
I thought what she said
was gold, the whole thing.

00:17:55:14 - 00:17:58:01
And it's I thought
what she said was awesome.

00:17:58:01 - 00:17:58:15
You did.

00:17:58:15 - 00:18:00:21
But if you take that
part of it out of fear

00:18:00:21 - 00:18:02:14
was that's
why everybody shared it.

00:18:02:14 - 00:18:04:08
But it gives you
an excuse thing, right?

00:18:04:08 - 00:18:05:15
Nobody
watches the whole thing.

00:18:05:15 - 00:18:07:17
Production guys watch it
and they're like,

00:18:07:17 - 00:18:09:00
I told all of you, it's

00:18:09:00 - 00:18:10:16
not my fault
that I'm a jerk to you.

00:18:10:16 - 00:18:12:18
I told you, Alex Eilish,
so influential.

00:18:12:18 - 00:18:14:12
Everybody loves her.
She said it first.

00:18:14:12 - 00:18:18:15
My fear was,
is that if if you're

00:18:18:22 - 00:18:22:04
if you're on a production team
and you have a bad attitude,

00:18:22:16 - 00:18:24:12
don't have a bad attitude,
right,

00:18:24:12 - 00:18:26:16
you you are choosing
to have a bad attitude.

00:18:26:16 - 00:18:29:16
Yes. So that was like
my little bit of like,

00:18:29:21 - 00:18:33:01
you know, I get it
good on good.

00:18:33:02 - 00:18:34:21
I still don't understand
how it's leaders fault.

00:18:34:21 - 00:18:36:02
And I'm not trying
to miss your words.

00:18:36:02 - 00:18:39:07
I, I don't understand
how it's fully the leader

00:18:39:09 - 00:18:40:14
for what she was saying was,

00:18:40:14 - 00:18:42:08
is because
because everything after that

00:18:42:08 - 00:18:44:07
I left and agreed
I didn't understand.

00:18:44:07 - 00:18:46:11
I think what she's saying is,
is because I'm walking in,

00:18:46:11 - 00:18:48:06
okay, let's say I'm a producer
and I walk in

00:18:48:06 - 00:18:49:14
and my whole crew is grumpy

00:18:49:14 - 00:18:51:02
and they're all they're

00:18:51:02 - 00:18:54:06
all sassy and tired
and not taken care of,

00:18:54:06 - 00:18:55:09
and they're all griping

00:18:55:09 - 00:18:56:06
and complaining,

00:18:56:06 - 00:18:57:16
and I'm not going to cut
like Jeff

00:18:57:16 - 00:19:00:22
is, but, you know, drop
all the bad words in there

00:19:00:23 - 00:19:02:08
and we'll pray for you, Jeff.

00:19:02:08 - 00:19:06:05
But, you know, he just had
this huge pastoral moment

00:19:06:05 - 00:19:09:08
before that and then and
but here's the problem.

00:19:09:09 - 00:19:11:18
Listen. Damn.
And ask her both in the Bible.

00:19:11:18 - 00:19:12:14
Hey, that's okay.

00:19:12:14 - 00:19:14:06
But there is a little bit
of truth to that.

00:19:14:06 - 00:19:17:09
If I walk in and my entire
team is in a bad mood,

00:19:17:11 - 00:19:19:16
it more than likely
probably is my fault

00:19:19:16 - 00:19:22:03
because I'm going
rises and falls on leadership.

00:19:22:03 - 00:19:23:16
Where did I drop the ball?

00:19:23:16 - 00:19:25:22
What did I not
communicate to the crew?

00:19:25:22 - 00:19:28:01
You know, did
I forget to feed them today?

00:19:28:01 - 00:19:28:23
Did I forget to,

00:19:28:23 - 00:19:30:11
you know, I'm talking about
from a producing.

00:19:30:11 - 00:19:31:16
They could just be hungry.

00:19:31:16 - 00:19:32:11
They could just be

00:19:32:11 - 00:19:34:21
could just be upset
about something silly that,

00:19:34:21 - 00:19:35:09
you know,

00:19:35:09 - 00:19:36:08
needed to be addressed

00:19:36:08 - 00:19:38:12
or I didn't hear an idea
that was that,

00:19:38:12 - 00:19:40:06
that the whole team
wanted to run with.

00:19:40:06 - 00:19:43:01
And I just blew it off because
I was onto something else.

00:19:43:01 - 00:19:44:06
And so

00:19:44:06 - 00:19:46:07
or I'm pushing them too hard
or I'm running them,

00:19:46:07 - 00:19:47:09
I'm paying them at 12

00:19:47:09 - 00:19:50:08
instead of tens for overtime
or whatever it is like

00:19:50:08 - 00:19:51:16
from a pastoral standpoint,

00:19:51:16 - 00:19:53:08
a worship pastor standpoint,
a production

00:19:53:08 - 00:19:55:19
director or leadership,
a creative role. Yeah.

00:19:55:19 - 00:19:57:14
I mean, there probably
is some truth to that,

00:19:57:14 - 00:20:01:05
like quit change something,
but also we're lacking

00:20:01:15 - 00:20:03:16
communication
between between that

00:20:03:16 - 00:20:05:09
we're lacking
those honest conversations.

00:20:05:09 - 00:20:07:08
We're lacking
that feedback culture.

00:20:07:08 - 00:20:09:20
So I don't disagree
with that approach.

00:20:09:20 - 00:20:12:06
I just it was just more to it
that was left out.

00:20:12:06 - 00:20:15:22
And so I was hesitant to fuel
the fire of bad attitudes.

00:20:16:00 - 00:20:19:00
I think in the context of the
if she's talking to me or

00:20:19:05 - 00:20:21:13
if she is talking to leaders,
then at that point

00:20:21:13 - 00:20:23:17
it is appropriate because,
yeah, she's talking leaders.

00:20:23:17 - 00:20:25:03
She's talking to leaders
about leadership.

00:20:25:03 - 00:20:27:09
So if your team is bad, it's
because of your leadership.

00:20:27:09 - 00:20:28:03
So yeah,

00:20:28:03 - 00:20:30:15
but for a production person
to take that out of context,

00:20:30:15 - 00:20:32:06
to go see,
I told you it's your fault.

00:20:32:06 - 00:20:32:13
Yeah.

00:20:32:13 - 00:20:34:08
No, it's like there's shared
blame

00:20:34:08 - 00:20:35:20
because at the end of the day,

00:20:35:20 - 00:20:38:16
your feelings, your attitude,
your like,

00:20:38:16 - 00:20:40:13
she's not responsible
for your feelings.

00:20:40:13 - 00:20:42:14
You're responsible
for your feelings.

00:20:42:14 - 00:20:45:05
Hey, I want to take a quick
break and tell you about MQ.

00:20:45:05 - 00:20:47:01
MQ is the one platform
that you need

00:20:47:01 - 00:20:48:15
to run your worship
and tech ministry.

00:20:48:15 - 00:20:49:18
We do it through helping you

00:20:49:18 - 00:20:51:04
train your volunteers
with thousands

00:20:51:04 - 00:20:53:14
of training videos
and automated pathways.

00:20:53:14 - 00:20:57:01
We help you plan your weekend
services with team messaging,

00:20:57:02 - 00:20:59:17
task management,
and automated scheduling.

00:20:59:17 - 00:21:01:17
And then lastly,
we help you actually run

00:21:01:17 - 00:21:03:02
and execute Sunday

00:21:03:02 - 00:21:05:15
with dashboards that connect
all the tools that you

00:21:05:15 - 00:21:07:12
currently use into one place.

00:21:07:12 - 00:21:10:01
If you want to learn more
about it, you can head to get.

00:21:10:01 - 00:21:11:03
Now back to the show.

00:21:11:03 - 00:21:13:09
feelings. Yeah.
And this is this is where

00:21:14:14 - 00:21:16:10
we. Okay.

00:21:16:10 - 00:21:18:01
One of
the most listened to podcasts

00:21:18:01 - 00:21:21:20
and history was the podcast.

00:21:21:20 - 00:21:22:15
You were on it?

00:21:22:15 - 00:21:24:18
It was a couple years ago.
We recorded.

00:21:24:18 - 00:21:26:03
I can't remember
if you were on it, Dylan,

00:21:26:03 - 00:21:28:07
but probably not
if everybody listened to it.

00:21:28:07 - 00:21:31:07
But it was a my sound guy.

00:21:32:07 - 00:21:34:06
I think it was like my sound
guy's a jerk.

00:21:34:06 - 00:21:34:20
Do you remember that?

00:21:34:20 - 00:21:37:17
We like
the whole conversation.

00:21:37:17 - 00:21:40:17
We really dug
deep into that. And.

00:21:41:02 - 00:21:42:05
Well, because historically

00:21:42:05 - 00:21:45:23
we have a reputation
like of being jerks.

00:21:46:00 - 00:21:48:11
Yeah, there's this tendency
to build, he said.

00:21:48:11 - 00:21:51:21
By the way, he said, we built
stanchions around our skill,

00:21:52:04 - 00:21:53:18
put up a little,

00:21:53:18 - 00:21:56:01
you know, wall and say,
this is my sandbox.

00:21:56:01 - 00:21:56:20
I'm the one.

00:21:56:20 - 00:21:59:01
I'm the only one who knows
how this stuff works.

00:21:59:01 - 00:22:00:16
I'm going to stiff arm
everybody else

00:22:00:16 - 00:22:04:04
because this is my territory
and keep out.

00:22:04:05 - 00:22:04:13
Yeah.

00:22:04:13 - 00:22:05:17
And then it turns into this

00:22:05:17 - 00:22:07:21
attitude
where we just have this gulf

00:22:07:21 - 00:22:09:02
between the booth
and the stage,

00:22:09:02 - 00:22:12:15
because this is my job,
and I'm the guy.

00:22:12:15 - 00:22:15:08
And I learned,
you know, this stuff.

00:22:15:08 - 00:22:16:08
And nobody,

00:22:16:08 - 00:22:17:20
nobody remembers, though,
that you learned it

00:22:17:20 - 00:22:20:09
from somebody else
and it's all rented anyway.

00:22:20:09 - 00:22:22:17
It's not like
you didn't invent live sound.

00:22:22:17 - 00:22:23:20
Get over yourselves.

00:22:23:20 - 00:22:26:20
But there's that reputation
of the sort of

00:22:26:21 - 00:22:30:11
curmudgeonly, gruff, church
sound guy who's just, like,

00:22:30:12 - 00:22:34:10
sitting in the back, arms
crossed, brow furrowed.

00:22:34:11 - 00:22:35:15
Yeah.
What would be our version?

00:22:35:15 - 00:22:37:03
What would be our worship
leader version of that

00:22:37:03 - 00:22:39:13
if we were to do an episode
that everybody listened to?

00:22:39:13 - 00:22:43:18
That was what to do when
your worship leader blank.

00:22:43:19 - 00:22:45:12
What's the other side of this
coin?

00:22:45:12 - 00:22:47:16
What's that episode?

00:22:51:04 - 00:22:52:09
Entitled narcissistic

00:22:52:09 - 00:22:55:09
Rock star wardrobe.

00:22:55:17 - 00:23:00:10
Oh, dude, it just ekes me
that these worship leaders

00:23:01:10 - 00:23:02:01
first.

00:23:02:01 - 00:23:04:06
Perks X steal.

00:23:04:06 - 00:23:06:18
Jaiden. Don't laugh. Steal.

00:23:06:18 - 00:23:08:17
They just

00:23:08:17 - 00:23:11:13
when they walk in wearing
what they wear

00:23:11:13 - 00:23:13:03
and they think that they are
above

00:23:13:03 - 00:23:15:02
everybody in that room
and they

00:23:15:02 - 00:23:17:21
they're walking in at doors
and they look ridiculous.

00:23:17:21 - 00:23:20:09
Look, nobody in culture
even wears that stuff.

00:23:20:09 - 00:23:21:19
I'm like, what are you doing?

00:23:21:19 - 00:23:24:16
Like,
we watch the halftime show

00:23:24:16 - 00:23:27:10
with our largest celebrity,
like,

00:23:27:10 - 00:23:29:17
pop star in the world right
now, Justin Bieber.

00:23:29:17 - 00:23:32:07
You can't the amount of money
they probably paid this guy

00:23:32:07 - 00:23:36:11
to even play Hallelujah on
the guitar was insane.

00:23:36:13 - 00:23:38:06
Nobody can book
this guy. He's not touring.

00:23:38:06 - 00:23:40:18
He's like, it just shows up
and does his thing and he can.

00:23:40:18 - 00:23:41:17
The number
of people in the world

00:23:41:17 - 00:23:44:07
that watch that match
just to see him. Yeah.

00:23:44:07 - 00:23:47:08
And he walks out where
and what he's wearing.

00:23:47:08 - 00:23:49:18
And I'm like, that's what

00:23:49:18 - 00:23:51:04
half our worship leaders
look like.

00:23:51:04 - 00:23:52:16
Like you just wait
till this Sunday.

00:23:52:16 - 00:23:53:18
They're
all going to be wearing it

00:23:53:18 - 00:23:54:23
because of what he did
the other day.

00:23:54:23 - 00:23:56:14
I'm like, what are we doing?

00:23:56:14 - 00:23:59:04
So production people probably
look at that and go,

00:23:59:04 - 00:24:00:16
there's already a disconnect.

00:24:00:16 - 00:24:03:11
Like, you look like an idiot
up there

00:24:03:11 - 00:24:06:00
and nobody's telling you,
you look like an idiot.

00:24:06:00 - 00:24:09:00
It drives me insane for those.

00:24:09:06 - 00:24:12:02
Oh, man, I want to
I have, I gotta,

00:24:12:02 - 00:24:13:21
I gotta see if I can find
this.

00:24:13:21 - 00:24:18:12
Dylan sent me this, and Jeff,
you didn't delete it.

00:24:18:12 - 00:24:19:05
I say all that.

00:24:19:05 - 00:24:22:04
I'll bring some some clarity
and some value to why

00:24:22:04 - 00:24:24:05
I was talking about people,
what they wear.

00:24:24:05 - 00:24:26:14
Because sometimes,
not all the time.

00:24:26:14 - 00:24:28:13
I have some of my best
friends in the world are full

00:24:28:13 - 00:24:29:10
time worship pastors.

00:24:29:10 - 00:24:32:21
Yeah, sometimes I see
or I will work with a church,

00:24:32:21 - 00:24:33:09
which I have

00:24:33:09 - 00:24:36:09
over the last couple of years,
where worship leaders,

00:24:36:21 - 00:24:39:21
they show up right at doors.

00:24:40:06 - 00:24:42:05
They're not at rehearsals,

00:24:42:05 - 00:24:44:08
they change programing
last minute.

00:24:44:08 - 00:24:48:16
They they look like a Justin
Bieber or they look like this

00:24:48:17 - 00:24:50:14
trying to be a celebrity pop
star,

00:24:50:14 - 00:24:54:08
showing up wearing shades and
sunglasses and Gucci shoes.

00:24:54:11 - 00:24:56:12
I'm like, you were. You were.

00:24:56:12 - 00:24:58:01
You cannot tell me.

00:24:58:01 - 00:25:00:10
Well, we've talked about this
so many times,

00:25:00:10 - 00:25:02:07
I can't find it.
They took it down.

00:25:02:07 - 00:25:03:09
They just did.

00:25:03:09 - 00:25:05:04
You can't tell me that.

00:25:05:04 - 00:25:05:19
And I'm not.

00:25:05:19 - 00:25:07:19
I don't want to come across
in a judgment standpoint

00:25:07:19 - 00:25:09:03
because they
they may love the Lord

00:25:09:03 - 00:25:10:07
more than anybody
and they may be.

00:25:10:07 - 00:25:11:05
But I

00:25:11:05 - 00:25:12:12
automatically you're setting

00:25:12:12 - 00:25:13:22
a disconnect
between you and more

00:25:13:22 - 00:25:15:02
than likely your production
team.

00:25:15:02 - 00:25:17:03
Nobody who loves the Lord
wear sunglasses indoors.

00:25:17:03 - 00:25:18:00
I'm sorry

00:25:19:02 - 00:25:20:16
we can't
get back on the sunglasses.

00:25:20:16 - 00:25:23:07
It wasn't Chandler more, okay?
It wasn't Chandler more.

00:25:23:07 - 00:25:24:16
Not just move on.

00:25:24:16 - 00:25:26:14
Okay,
but the real I wanted to find

00:25:26:14 - 00:25:28:19
it was the one of the pastor.
The massive.

00:25:28:19 - 00:25:30:19
Remember that video
you saw me?

00:25:30:19 - 00:25:32:15
It had been a joke.

00:25:32:15 - 00:25:34:12
I think it was real.

00:25:34:12 - 00:25:35:16
But they're also in Portland.

00:25:35:16 - 00:25:36:06
I mean,

00:25:36:06 - 00:25:41:10
he had a gigantic shirt on,
and this thing was like the

00:25:42:02 - 00:25:45:16
the shoulders, like, went out,
like he was wearing

00:25:45:16 - 00:25:47:03
a coat hanger on both sides.

00:25:47:03 - 00:25:49:04
He went out
and it went down on the floor

00:25:49:04 - 00:25:51:09
and it's this big box shirt
and he's preaching the gospel.

00:25:51:09 - 00:25:53:03
He's he's being dead
serious, like he's

00:25:53:03 - 00:25:55:05
preaching the gospel
and it's like bedazzled.

00:25:55:05 - 00:25:56:13
It's like all these pearls
on it.

00:25:56:13 - 00:25:59:17
I'm like, and that's his,
like, fit for the day.

00:25:59:19 - 00:26:01:10
He looks in the mirror
before he leaves.

00:26:01:10 - 00:26:03:04
I'm an audio engineer.
I'm going to be growing.

00:26:03:04 - 00:26:04:19
This can't this cannot be.

00:26:04:19 - 00:26:06:02
This is not the episode
though.

00:26:06:02 - 00:26:09:02
That is not like that's
their worst offense is wearing

00:26:09:02 - 00:26:10:02
ridiculous clothes.

00:26:10:02 - 00:26:12:17
Like, is that really why like,

00:26:12:17 - 00:26:14:09
that's
why tech guys are jerks.

00:26:14:09 - 00:26:16:04
No, but
you're looking on the reel.

00:26:16:04 - 00:26:18:02
And I was bringing clarity of
why on the wardrobe.

00:26:18:02 - 00:26:18:22
I was mainly saying

00:26:18:22 - 00:26:22:04
because that's just one of
the things that they show up.

00:26:22:04 - 00:26:24:07
They show up at doors,
they change programing,

00:26:24:07 - 00:26:25:12
they change things
last minute.

00:26:25:12 - 00:26:27:03
They expect their stuff
to be lined up

00:26:27:03 - 00:26:28:11
and lined out and ready to go.

00:26:28:11 - 00:26:29:19
And the guitar
put around their neck.

00:26:29:19 - 00:26:32:01
They walk in wearing what
they're wearing sunglasses on.

00:26:32:01 - 00:26:33:08
Can I summarize it?
Can I summarize it?

00:26:33:08 - 00:26:35:01
I think, tell me if I'm wrong.

00:26:35:01 - 00:26:36:11
Disagree with me. I think

00:26:37:15 - 00:26:39:17
they at times can

00:26:39:17 - 00:26:42:18
be very disconnected,
just very disconnected.

00:26:42:18 - 00:26:44:00
Why do you wear that
ridiculous stuff?

00:26:44:00 - 00:26:45:13
Because you are disconnected

00:26:45:13 - 00:26:47:05
from reality
and the people that

00:26:47:05 - 00:26:48:18
you are called to to shepherd.

00:26:48:18 - 00:26:50:16
And so here's my like

00:26:50:16 - 00:26:53:09
and I'm not
I don't know any specifics.

00:26:53:09 - 00:26:54:21
I'm not calling anybody out.

00:26:54:21 - 00:26:58:08
But to me that's a symptom.

00:26:58:14 - 00:27:02:07
I would ask the question, in
what other ways in your life

00:27:02:07 - 00:27:03:17
are you disconnected? Yeah.

00:27:03:17 - 00:27:04:05
In other words,

00:27:04:05 - 00:27:05:18
if you're disconnected
to that degree

00:27:05:18 - 00:27:08:22
when you walk in the room,
then how can I be assured

00:27:08:22 - 00:27:10:23
that you have spent time

00:27:10:23 - 00:27:13:05
meditating on what you're
going to be singing? Yeah.

00:27:13:05 - 00:27:15:23
Do you know the scripture
on which the song is based?

00:27:15:23 - 00:27:17:17
Have you prayed about this
worship set?

00:27:17:17 - 00:27:19:13
Have you prayed
for the team on stage?

00:27:19:13 - 00:27:21:12
Have you prayed for me
as the person who's

00:27:21:12 - 00:27:23:19
trying to partner with you
to communicate this message?

00:27:23:19 - 00:27:25:11
Do you have a moment
in a huddle

00:27:25:11 - 00:27:27:22
before the service where
we can all pray together?

00:27:27:22 - 00:27:29:14
Like if we invited the Lord

00:27:29:14 - 00:27:31:08
to be a part
of what we're doing here?

00:27:31:08 - 00:27:34:08
Because if not, Jeff's
going to start cussing again.

00:27:34:08 - 00:27:36:00
Yeah, 100%. Well,
I don't want.

00:27:36:00 - 00:27:37:09
And it's back to what you said
earlier.

00:27:37:09 - 00:27:39:07
The whole
like the disconnected

00:27:39:07 - 00:27:41:09
on many levels
like to to tell somebody,

00:27:41:09 - 00:27:43:20
hey, can you make my mics
more organic?

00:27:43:20 - 00:27:45:18
You sound
pretty disconnected. Yeah.

00:27:45:18 - 00:27:48:01
Or if you're like,
hey, whatever.

00:27:48:01 - 00:27:50:23
And I think that is a tension

00:27:50:23 - 00:27:54:06
that I'm, I'm feeling
as I talk to,

00:27:54:11 - 00:27:55:09
you know,
the other side of the coin

00:27:55:09 - 00:27:56:09
and the on the tech

00:27:56:09 - 00:27:59:09
team production team is just
these guys don't have a clue.

00:27:59:09 - 00:28:00:06
They show up late.

00:28:00:06 - 00:28:01:17
They don't learn their parts.

00:28:01:17 - 00:28:04:09
They think that everybody
loves them. They show up.

00:28:04:09 - 00:28:07:05
They have this ego
that is just so present.

00:28:07:05 - 00:28:09:01
Everybody in the lobby
tells them how great they are.

00:28:09:01 - 00:28:13:22
And then they come backstage
and they BS me and ask me,

00:28:14:03 - 00:28:15:09
you know how
my family is doing

00:28:15:09 - 00:28:17:00
and they don't even know
my kids names.

00:28:17:00 - 00:28:19:11
And you know,
they just are so disconnected.

00:28:19:11 - 00:28:21:10
Their identity is wrapped up
in the platform.

00:28:21:10 - 00:28:22:21
Yeah. And it's are you done?

00:28:22:21 - 00:28:24:09
Or you thought, I'm done,
I'm done.

00:28:24:09 - 00:28:26:11
I just yeah,
I think, well, I don't

00:28:26:11 - 00:28:28:06
I don't want to finish
my thought on that.

00:28:28:06 - 00:28:29:17
No, I don't want to.

00:28:29:17 - 00:28:31:04
It's not just worship pastors.

00:28:31:04 - 00:28:34:22
We also see this pride
in the new age of production,

00:28:34:22 - 00:28:35:05
people

00:28:35:05 - 00:28:37:13
with the new Instagram
accounts and the followers

00:28:37:13 - 00:28:40:06
and turning that into
businesses. And we love you.

00:28:40:06 - 00:28:42:17
We're seeing that all over
Instagram as well.

00:28:42:17 - 00:28:43:23
All three of us
dabble in that.

00:28:43:23 - 00:28:45:19
We're, you know, you know,
and so

00:28:45:19 - 00:28:46:16
there's nothing wrong with it.

00:28:46:16 - 00:28:48:00
But we're starting to see it
in the production.

00:28:48:00 - 00:28:50:04
These personalities
arise in production.

00:28:50:04 - 00:28:52:11
Worship has been that way
and they're coming that way.

00:28:52:11 - 00:28:55:11
We also see in Pastoral
Leadership just the other day,

00:28:55:13 - 00:28:58:09
props with that Instagram,
props with pastors or whatever

00:28:58:09 - 00:29:00:00
it's called, preachers
and sneakers,

00:29:00:00 - 00:29:01:08
no props with pastors.

00:29:01:08 - 00:29:02:14
They may make fun of passion

00:29:02:14 - 00:29:04:02
on stage
with these crazy props.

00:29:04:02 - 00:29:06:05
Well,
one of the graphics was like

00:29:06:05 - 00:29:08:09
Condom Kingdom
or something like that,

00:29:08:09 - 00:29:10:00
and he was on stage
and he was like,

00:29:10:00 - 00:29:12:06
you're probably thinking,
this is crazy

00:29:12:06 - 00:29:14:00
because we're at church
where I'm gonna bring it.

00:29:14:00 - 00:29:14:07
I'm gonna

00:29:14:07 - 00:29:15:16
I'm gonna tell you right now
at this church,

00:29:15:16 - 00:29:17:16
we're not going to be a filter
church. And I'm not.

00:29:17:16 - 00:29:18:08
I wasn't against that.

00:29:18:08 - 00:29:19:17
Like I wasn't
against his approach.

00:29:19:17 - 00:29:21:07
But then he said, you're

00:29:21:07 - 00:29:23:09
probably kind of surprised
that I'm allowing this

00:29:23:09 - 00:29:25:04
on my stage.

00:29:25:04 - 00:29:27:03
And nobody in the comments
I went through

00:29:27:03 - 00:29:27:22
all the comments was like,

00:29:27:22 - 00:29:29:05
nobody's calling him out
for saying my,

00:29:29:05 - 00:29:31:02
I don't even care
about the graphic. Yeah,

00:29:31:02 - 00:29:34:16
these people legitimately
think that stage is theirs.

00:29:34:17 - 00:29:36:05
Yeah,
and that's the disconnect.

00:29:36:05 - 00:29:38:02
These pastors
think their stages are theirs.

00:29:38:02 - 00:29:40:00
These worship leaders
think their stages are theirs.

00:29:40:00 - 00:29:41:13
That is not their stage.

00:29:41:13 - 00:29:43:03
That is inside
of a local church.

00:29:43:03 - 00:29:45:08
That is, that belongs
to God and God only,

00:29:45:08 - 00:29:47:11
and he's allowed you
to be on that platform.

00:29:47:11 - 00:29:50:02
I'm just like,
this is the red.

00:29:50:02 - 00:29:50:15
Yeah, yeah.

00:29:50:15 - 00:29:51:04
I feel like

00:29:51:04 - 00:29:53:04
I felt my blood pressure
going, okay, a couple things

00:29:53:04 - 00:29:55:02
because I'm like, that's
a huge mess, a couple things.

00:29:55:02 - 00:29:55:15
My stage.

00:29:55:15 - 00:29:56:12
I just want to make sure

00:29:56:12 - 00:29:58:05
because we keep saying
these pastors,

00:29:58:05 - 00:30:00:06
these worship leaders,
who are we talking about?

00:30:00:06 - 00:30:01:22
This is not everybody. Right?

00:30:01:22 - 00:30:05:07
But this is but the danger is
it could be everybody because

00:30:05:07 - 00:30:09:13
we're all drawn to that
because of being human.

00:30:09:13 - 00:30:09:21
Yeah.

00:30:09:21 - 00:30:12:20
It's like if we're not careful
a little bit of drift

00:30:12:20 - 00:30:14:20
can go, oh,
that did feel pretty good.

00:30:14:20 - 00:30:16:07
That was a dopamine hit.

00:30:16:07 - 00:30:18:00
They are stroking my ego
when they say

00:30:18:00 - 00:30:19:13
that I want more of that.

00:30:19:13 - 00:30:21:18
Maybe if I do this more
it would be even better.

00:30:21:18 - 00:30:24:12
Like it's like,
you know, give me that hit.

00:30:24:12 - 00:30:28:07
So yeah, we're talking
about examples in the extreme,

00:30:28:09 - 00:30:31:04
but the point is about
identity.

00:30:31:04 - 00:30:35:06
Like is your grounding
in the right place,

00:30:35:06 - 00:30:37:20
not in who people say you are,
but in who God says you.

00:30:37:20 - 00:30:40:02
Are you doing this
for the right reasons?

00:30:40:02 - 00:30:41:05
Are you actually

00:30:42:11 - 00:30:43:05
feeling like

00:30:43:05 - 00:30:46:16
you're called in this moment
to lead people

00:30:47:04 - 00:30:49:22
toward the gospel, toward
Jesus, toward

00:30:49:22 - 00:30:51:09
what the Holy Spirit
has for them?

00:30:51:09 - 00:30:56:00
And can you bring other people
with you on that journey

00:30:56:00 - 00:30:57:03
to partner in that?

00:30:57:03 - 00:30:59:10
Because, man,
if we're all flowing in

00:30:59:10 - 00:31:01:02
that same stream together,

00:31:01:02 - 00:31:03:07
we have no idea
the power that can happen

00:31:03:07 - 00:31:05:02
in this room
if we're doing that together.

00:31:05:02 - 00:31:08:15
But that has to be that
our egos get set to the side.

00:31:08:15 - 00:31:09:12
It has to be done with.

00:31:09:12 - 00:31:11:17
Humility has to be done
with open hands,

00:31:11:17 - 00:31:14:01
you know,
in terms of identity.

00:31:14:01 - 00:31:17:01
Second, Peter
says, you are a chosen people,

00:31:17:02 - 00:31:21:05
a royal priesthood, God's
special possession,

00:31:22:14 - 00:31:25:03
that he has called you
out of darkness

00:31:25:03 - 00:31:27:22
into his marvelous light, that
you may declare his praises.

00:31:27:22 - 00:31:29:05
It's like that.

00:31:29:05 - 00:31:31:19
You know the quotes a little
jumbled, but that's the point.

00:31:31:19 - 00:31:34:00
It's like that version you're

00:31:34:00 - 00:31:35:20
you've been called
to this moment.

00:31:35:20 - 00:31:39:14
Yes, to cooperate
as a priesthood.

00:31:40:06 - 00:31:42:16
You know, Jesus is our priest
and we don't need an

00:31:42:16 - 00:31:43:07
intermediary.

00:31:43:07 - 00:31:45:14
But I'm talking about
for preparing this place

00:31:45:14 - 00:31:47:07
for the people of God
to experience

00:31:47:07 - 00:31:49:14
the presence of God
through the praises of God.

00:31:49:14 - 00:31:51:05
That is happening

00:31:51:05 - 00:31:52:19
not because of this person

00:31:52:19 - 00:31:55:04
on stage with a weird outfit
in a microphone.

00:31:55:04 - 00:31:57:13
It's happening
with the team in the back,

00:31:57:13 - 00:31:59:02
who's scrolling through
slides, who's

00:31:59:02 - 00:32:00:06
getting graphics on the right

00:32:00:06 - 00:32:02:13
time, who's making the lights
compelling,

00:32:02:13 - 00:32:03:22
who's making an impactful

00:32:03:22 - 00:32:06:03
mix and playing guitar
and singing

00:32:06:03 - 00:32:07:22
in a mic and playing drums.

00:32:07:22 - 00:32:11:04
It's like it has to be
cooperative and collaborative.

00:32:11:08 - 00:32:11:16
Yeah.

00:32:11:16 - 00:32:14:04
And to the point earlier
about the organic thing,

00:32:14:04 - 00:32:17:07
the way that got resolved
is because of relationship,

00:32:17:14 - 00:32:20:01
because the monitor engineer
was confused.

00:32:20:01 - 00:32:21:19
He said, I don't know what
you mean by that.

00:32:21:19 - 00:32:23:01
Well, it turns out

00:32:23:01 - 00:32:26:12
he just liked a more open
sound in his overheads.

00:32:26:12 - 00:32:27:04
So it's like,

00:32:27:04 - 00:32:28:00
can you just give me

00:32:28:00 - 00:32:29:15
more of the overheads

00:32:29:15 - 00:32:31:20
and make it sound less direct
so that I can feel like

00:32:31:20 - 00:32:33:11
I'm kind of standing
in front of the kit?

00:32:33:11 - 00:32:35:16
It's like, oh, great, that's
what you mean by organic?

00:32:35:16 - 00:32:36:20
I can do that for sure.

00:32:36:20 - 00:32:38:21
And it's like there's
collaboration,

00:32:38:21 - 00:32:41:04
there's cooperation
because there's relationship.

00:32:41:04 - 00:32:42:17
Yeah, it's not us and them.

00:32:42:17 - 00:32:45:12
It's us together as one 100%.

00:32:45:12 - 00:32:49:05
And I think what I'm, what I'm
starting to be convinced of

00:32:49:06 - 00:32:51:23
is that us in the worship
and tech ministry,

00:32:51:23 - 00:32:54:14
we are not special in this.

00:32:54:14 - 00:32:58:16
This tension
we feel is not unique.

00:32:58:17 - 00:33:00:21
Okay, so when I stepped out
of vocational ministry

00:33:00:21 - 00:33:04:04
and went to work in software,
I was really

00:33:04:08 - 00:33:07:06
I found a really successful
path in that company

00:33:07:06 - 00:33:08:06
because of my ability

00:33:08:06 - 00:33:10:15
to communicate with software
engineers,

00:33:10:15 - 00:33:12:11
just different people
in the company.

00:33:12:11 - 00:33:14:16
They were on a different floor
of the company,

00:33:14:16 - 00:33:16:03
of the of the building.

00:33:16:03 - 00:33:17:14
People wouldn't go up there.

00:33:17:14 - 00:33:18:16
We don't know
how to talk to them.

00:33:18:16 - 00:33:19:23
And I,

00:33:19:23 - 00:33:22:10
I was used to working
in church

00:33:22:10 - 00:33:25:09
dealing with this tension
and worship in tech,

00:33:25:09 - 00:33:27:00
where it was like
I kind of was a hybrid.

00:33:27:00 - 00:33:28:21
I could kind of speak
both languages,

00:33:28:21 - 00:33:30:05
and I was like,

00:33:30:05 - 00:33:30:12
I know

00:33:30:12 - 00:33:34:11
exactly how to handle this
because this is people stuff.

00:33:34:15 - 00:33:37:09
This is not unique to worship
and technical ministry.

00:33:37:09 - 00:33:39:10
This is called
being in the world. Right.

00:33:39:10 - 00:33:42:23
And and I think sometimes we
like to give ourselves a pass.

00:33:43:00 - 00:33:44:04
Oh that's worship and tech.

00:33:44:04 - 00:33:45:03
It's just this thing.

00:33:45:03 - 00:33:46:07
It's like,
no, we're just kind of

00:33:46:07 - 00:33:48:11
following the world's example.

00:33:48:11 - 00:33:51:03
So what if we don't
follow the world's example?

00:33:51:03 - 00:33:54:03
And exactly like you said,
there's relationship

00:33:54:10 - 00:33:56:11
were actually
where's our identity?

00:33:56:11 - 00:33:57:07
Where are we rooted?

00:33:57:07 - 00:33:58:20
We come together
in the name of Jesus

00:33:58:20 - 00:34:00:08
and the mission
that we're on together in,

00:34:00:08 - 00:34:03:00
in, in this
very special context

00:34:03:00 - 00:34:04:10
of being the local church.

00:34:04:10 - 00:34:07:22
Yeah, I think that we, we like
to give ourselves a pass.

00:34:07:23 - 00:34:11:16
Oh, I'm a muso, I'm a tech,
I'm a techie, I'm a whatever.

00:34:11:16 - 00:34:14:01
All the names that
people come up for themselves.

00:34:14:01 - 00:34:14:19
And it's like,

00:34:14:19 - 00:34:16:13
no, really,
what you're communicating is

00:34:16:13 - 00:34:18:10
you just kind of have
an identity crisis.

00:34:18:10 - 00:34:19:13
Yeah,
because I think for the people

00:34:19:13 - 00:34:22:09
who are on the receiving end,
on the production side,

00:34:22:09 - 00:34:23:15
the people who feel like

00:34:23:15 - 00:34:26:15
they've been demoted
or are less than or whatever,

00:34:26:16 - 00:34:30:18
you know, it's easy to sort of
play the victim in that,

00:34:30:20 - 00:34:34:11
but it also requires
initiative on our part to go,

00:34:34:12 - 00:34:37:05
okay, how can I learn to speak
some of their language?

00:34:37:05 - 00:34:39:05
How can I learn?

00:34:39:05 - 00:34:41:15
Like, why is this significant
for an audio engineer

00:34:41:15 - 00:34:44:15
to know anything about music
theory?

00:34:44:19 - 00:34:45:23
It's super important

00:34:45:23 - 00:34:48:01
for an audio engineer
to know about music theory.

00:34:48:01 - 00:34:50:00
I want to know
the Nashville number system

00:34:50:00 - 00:34:51:00
so that when they say
we're going

00:34:51:00 - 00:34:52:10
to end the song on the four,

00:34:52:10 - 00:34:53:09
I know what that means

00:34:53:09 - 00:34:56:16
and why and how it helps us
transition from this song

00:34:56:17 - 00:34:59:21
to the next song because
of those keys being related.

00:34:59:23 - 00:35:00:11
It's like, okay,

00:35:00:11 - 00:35:01:00
that can help me

00:35:01:00 - 00:35:02:18
massage the transition
so that I know

00:35:02:18 - 00:35:03:11
this pad

00:35:03:11 - 00:35:05:01
is going to lead
into this next song,

00:35:05:01 - 00:35:06:22
or the host is going
to come up under this thing.

00:35:06:22 - 00:35:09:15
And because I understand
more about the music,

00:35:09:15 - 00:35:12:01
I can help
facilitate that better.

00:35:12:01 - 00:35:14:16
So it's like it's got to go
both ways. Yeah.

00:35:14:16 - 00:35:17:04
And for the musician,
for the guitar player

00:35:17:04 - 00:35:18:20
to know more about

00:35:18:20 - 00:35:20:13
the technical aspects
of what their amp

00:35:20:13 - 00:35:23:21
modeling is doing or whatever,
whatever the case may be for

00:35:23:22 - 00:35:26:14
the for the singer to know
enough about my technique,

00:35:26:14 - 00:35:28:11
to know that if I hold this
this way,

00:35:28:11 - 00:35:29:08
it's really going to help

00:35:29:08 - 00:35:32:08
the audio team manage
my sound better.

00:35:32:08 - 00:35:32:17
It's like

00:35:32:17 - 00:35:35:19
it has to be both sides
coming together to compromise.

00:35:35:20 - 00:35:36:21
And so just do it.

00:35:36:21 - 00:35:40:13
Just do something like if you
if you're thinking, Jeff,

00:35:40:13 - 00:35:41:15
that was a great point.

00:35:41:15 - 00:35:44:08
But my plate is so full
right now

00:35:44:08 - 00:35:45:17
as the worship leader
of this church,

00:35:45:17 - 00:35:48:00
like the
the thought of even learning

00:35:48:00 - 00:35:51:15
or acting like
I want to learn an audio

00:35:51:15 - 00:35:53:13
console or acting like,
you know, just

00:35:53:13 - 00:35:57:00
a video transition or switcher
or whatever.

00:35:57:09 - 00:35:59:09
Just do something.

00:35:59:09 - 00:36:00:13
Do you know the guy's name?

00:36:00:13 - 00:36:01:21
You know their name. That's
what they're going to say.

00:36:01:21 - 00:36:03:01
Do you know their names?

00:36:03:01 - 00:36:04:01
Do you know, like,

00:36:04:01 - 00:36:08:07
just act like, don't act
like you need to, as a leader

00:36:08:08 - 00:36:10:20
put it as a priority
that you are on the same team

00:36:10:20 - 00:36:12:09
with these people
and that you're

00:36:12:09 - 00:36:14:01
handing the ball off
to your running back.

00:36:14:01 - 00:36:16:00
And you
I would say most quarterbacks

00:36:16:00 - 00:36:17:20
and other running backs
name for sure.

00:36:17:20 - 00:36:19:14
Well, and if you
if you're listening to this

00:36:19:14 - 00:36:22:14
and you go,
I identify as the good guy.

00:36:22:15 - 00:36:23:22
Like you're
probably doing it wrong to

00:36:23:22 - 00:36:25:07
I have those conversations
all the time.

00:36:25:07 - 00:36:26:18
People will be like,
I listen to the episode.

00:36:26:18 - 00:36:29:10
It was awesome, man. Like,
yeah, I'm dealing with that.

00:36:29:10 - 00:36:30:12
Like, I'm

00:36:30:12 - 00:36:32:07
I'm the good guy
in this scenario

00:36:32:07 - 00:36:34:06
and I'm dealing
with the bad guy

00:36:34:06 - 00:36:36:13
and he might not be
and just maybe

00:36:36:13 - 00:36:40:14
take a step back
and think, man, maybe,

00:36:40:15 - 00:36:42:04
maybe it takes two to tango

00:36:42:04 - 00:36:44:18
and we just don't know how to
speak each other's languages,

00:36:44:18 - 00:36:47:02
because when does it ever work
well for you to

00:36:47:02 - 00:36:49:19
play the victim
anywhere else in life?

00:36:49:19 - 00:36:53:14
Like, everybody looks kind of

00:36:53:15 - 00:36:56:13
sideways at a person
who has a victim mentality.

00:36:56:13 - 00:36:58:10
And if that's you
in your workplace

00:36:58:10 - 00:37:00:03
and that's you
in your worship experience

00:37:00:03 - 00:37:03:05
and that's you, then I mean,
we got to get beyond that.

00:37:03:06 - 00:37:03:14
It's like,

00:37:03:14 - 00:37:04:18
yeah, there are
there are times

00:37:04:18 - 00:37:06:03
when we're actually hurt,

00:37:06:03 - 00:37:07:23
but man,
we can't hold on to that

00:37:07:23 - 00:37:10:01
and use that
as a way to live our lives.

00:37:10:01 - 00:37:11:00
You've got to address it.

00:37:11:00 - 00:37:13:23
You've got to be forthcoming.

00:37:13:23 - 00:37:14:16
The church should be

00:37:14:16 - 00:37:17:06
the safest place
to have hard conversations,

00:37:17:06 - 00:37:19:06
and so often it's
the worst place.

00:37:19:06 - 00:37:21:08
So we've got to do better.
Leaders.

00:37:21:08 - 00:37:23:16
You've got to do better
at encouraging

00:37:23:16 - 00:37:26:08
feedback, encouraging
hard conversations.

00:37:26:08 - 00:37:28:16
But like we've
always said around you,

00:37:28:16 - 00:37:30:21
I can't have a conversation
with somebody like that

00:37:30:21 - 00:37:32:23
if I don't know their kids
names.

00:37:32:23 - 00:37:34:02
It's not even their name.

00:37:34:02 - 00:37:37:02
It's like it's
got to be a layer above

00:37:37:03 - 00:37:39:18
the actual conflict. It's
like we've got relationship,

00:37:39:18 - 00:37:40:19
you know, I love you.

00:37:40:19 - 00:37:42:08
You're at my house for dinner
two weeks ago.

00:37:42:08 - 00:37:43:08
We had a great time,

00:37:43:08 - 00:37:46:09
but we got to talk about this
like we're still

00:37:46:12 - 00:37:47:12
in this together.

00:37:47:12 - 00:37:49:14
But there's an issue here
we got to deal with. Yep.

00:37:49:14 - 00:37:51:20
And that's the only path
forward.

00:37:51:20 - 00:37:53:14
Yeah, 100%.

00:37:53:14 - 00:37:55:06
And don't don't think

00:37:55:06 - 00:37:56:23
I'll have a chance
at that relationship

00:37:56:23 - 00:37:59:16
next time around
once I get rid of this person.

00:37:59:16 - 00:38:01:14
Yeah.
Don't like in that scenario.

00:38:01:14 - 00:38:03:05
The problem is you 100%.

00:38:03:05 - 00:38:05:16
You're the comment
and we I've done this.

00:38:05:16 - 00:38:06:08
We've all done this.

00:38:06:08 - 00:38:06:18
It's like,

00:38:06:18 - 00:38:08:05
yeah, I get
how it's supposed to work

00:38:08:05 - 00:38:09:08
and I'll find that guy,

00:38:09:08 - 00:38:11:17
but I don't have that guy
right now. It's like, no.

00:38:11:17 - 00:38:13:07
So you're just looking
for a clone of yourself,

00:38:13:07 - 00:38:15:20
like help build that guy.
Like help, help create that.

00:38:15:20 - 00:38:18:05
Like, relationships take work

00:38:18:05 - 00:38:19:21
anyways, man,
this is why we solve.

00:38:19:21 - 00:38:21:09
Yeah, we've gotten hot here.
This is.

00:38:21:09 - 00:38:23:00
This has been really good,
I think.

00:38:23:00 - 00:38:23:22
I hope it's been good.

00:38:23:22 - 00:38:24:19
I think it's the first time

00:38:24:19 - 00:38:26:15
I've ever cussed
on the podcast. Yeah.

00:38:26:15 - 00:38:27:17
He used to be the one that got

00:38:27:17 - 00:38:29:10
a couple hundred people
for cussing.

00:38:29:10 - 00:38:31:12
Jada Sai
probably isn't listening,

00:38:31:12 - 00:38:34:14
but we'll send him a clip
so he can get back at Jeff.

00:38:34:14 - 00:38:36:15
All the years that Jay used
to cut us on this episode

00:38:36:15 - 00:38:38:02
or on this podcast,
I was editing it.

00:38:38:02 - 00:38:39:00
I had to sleep it all.

00:38:39:00 - 00:38:42:00
Yeah, Jeff would Jeff would
edit and be like, amazing Jay.

00:38:42:00 - 00:38:44:06
Anyways, hey,
thanks for joining us.

00:38:44:06 - 00:38:45:04
Have you made it this far?

00:38:45:04 - 00:38:47:18
And if you want to learn
more about you.

00:38:47:18 - 00:38:49:09
We'll put a link
in the description below.

00:38:49:09 - 00:38:52:22
Platform to help you
train, plan, execute weekends.

00:38:52:22 - 00:38:56:15
As a worship and tech leader,
we're excited about it.

00:38:56:15 - 00:38:59:02
There's a lot under the hood
we'd love to show you

00:38:59:02 - 00:38:59:10
had to get

00:39:00:15 - 00:39:01:21
if you want to learn more.

00:39:01:21 - 00:39:04:16
Thanks for joining. We'll see
you next time on the podcast.