The MxU Podcast

I like to start by saying,

I was going to share a story, actually. The other day, Joel was arguing with

Olivia, and I started lecturing him about how he should not interrupt his mother.

And he goes, but that's what you do to Mr. Dillon on the podcast. I like Joel.

And I would agree with Joel. I would agree with that for some reason in the past

couple weeks i've got a lot of messages from people saying they want to leave their

church this

is not new i feel like this has happened for many years people want to leave their

church it's not like oh all of a sudden there's this wave of people wanting to

leave their churches but I think maybe because the topic of the podcast lately,

there's been some folks saying

God's calling me to step out. So what I want to talk about today, for those of

you listening who maybe you're feeling this now or you have felt this in the past,

I want to talk about how to navigate this issue of maybe experiencing conflict in

our church, feeling like maybe we need to move on. I keep saying the word feel

because that's something that is coming up in a lot of these conversations. We're

feeling this, feeling that. But that's what I'd like to dive into. How does that

sound to you? Yeah. Yeah, that's good. No, I think it's an appropriate conversation

I have. And I think that it's a very on the forefront of minds to leave or to

not to leave. And this has been a conversation that has been had with me

specifically a lot with, I think,

and even at one point, someone made a joke about thinking about leaving ministry,

call Dylan. And I was like, and that's cool that you're that guy for people. Well,

it was more, it was more so of a, you know, when I was coaching more,

it would, that was our coaching. It was, I even made jokes about counseling. Like,

I feel like I'm just a counselor for, for a lot of worship and production staff.

It would always start with, this is what we need. Like, this is what we want to

get coached on. Here are some goals. Here's some, some wins we want I have through

coaching,

not all of it ended this way, most of them ended with more of a counseling session

of, well, maybe I don't need to be here anymore. And I was never the guy saying

leave. I was just the guy that was like, let's look at the whole picture here.

Let's look at everything that could be positives and negatives.

And then we would talk a little bit about what you're going to I guess you're in

a minute based off feelings versus voice. Yeah. But I don't know. I mean,

don't you think it's rather complex, and I find myself asking a lot of questions

when people say they want to leave. More often than not, don't you think it's

people wanting to leave their church? It's not just leave vocational ministry. They're

like, oh, I'm leaving my church. Is that what you experience as well? Yeah, that's

definitely what happens. And what do you... Sometimes that needs to happen.

Yeah, but do you find that it's more often than not, it's this situation, them on

staff has now led to them wanting to leave their church or them wanting to leave

their church. So like two very practical examples, like my pastor started preaching

heresy, I need to leave this church, therefore I no longer can be on staff either.

Or I had a bad go at it with my senior pastor in a meeting, and now I need to

leave our church. You get what I'm saying? Like one, one is instigated by just our

like membership in that church, you know, have an issue with actually being our

church versus like, it's my job and my job has now impacted. Because there's a

difference, like, we're called to be a part of the church, regardless of our

employment status. Yes. Right. For those that serve in the worship production space,

I can see why it would be hard to decide you no longer want to be on staff

because you're unhappy and then attend every weekend and act like you're happy when

you're watching and hearing and seeing everything that you've been a part of for

years. Yeah. So I see why people leave

the church, that church, specifically that church, to go somewhere else because it

would be very hard for them to sit in that environment every Sunday and go, I know

that's a flaw system. I know that person's miserable as I'll get out. I know that

this was an argument for six months. I know that LED wall wasn't the right move. I

know. So that can be hard. The problem is, is that it's not just happening in

production and worship. We hear it with student pastors. We see it with executive

team members. We see it with group pastors and group staff.

When people get upset, they're not just leaving their position. They also leave the

church. And that's not everyone. I know I can, maybe less than a handful of people

I can name that still attend the church that they just Yeah, from the staff member.

It does happen, but majority specifically, well, not specifically, but especially in

the worship production space, I see people leaving by the high rate of speed,

not just the brand that they're serving, but church in general.

That's my thought. I don't know. Let's talk about the emotions in it for a second,

because I think that's at play here. There are a lot of emotions when we decide or

when we're starting to wrestle with the idea of leaving a church. And oftentimes,

I'll just tell you from my subjective experience, what I hear from people is I feel

the spirit prompting us to move on. I'm feeling a call from the Holy Spirit that

we're done here. Our chapters, the door is closing, whatever, put whatever

Christianese season. The season's over. Episode, whatever Christianese you want to put

in there. I got to be really honest, I'm just going to be vulnerable here. I have

a really hard time with that, the hyper -spiritualization of leaving a ministry.

Sometimes I'm a bit tempted to say, and I'm curious your thoughts, but I'm a bit

tempted to wonder if God is, maybe doesn't work the way we think he does in this

area. Sometimes I think God is like, hey,

I just want you to walk in my ways. I don't really, I think you think I deeply

care if you're a part of this church or that church. I just want you a part of a

church where you can dive into my word with fellow believers, live in a faith

community with other believers, iron sharp and iron, so on and so forth. Sometimes

we make it about these, like, the Bible doesn't have a lot to say about, like, how

to transition off staff at a church. I don't think that's on accident, do you?

I haven't found it.

But, like, no, I know exactly what you're saying. Yes. For those that work in a

church, right? Because not all of us work in churches, for those who work in a

church,

I don't think if I'm protecting my heart at all cost and protecting my mind at all

costs, but I am allowing negativity from hallway conversations.

I'm allowing my emotions to drive the decisions I'm making.

No, I do not think that that's what God would want from us,

right? When it comes to making a decision.

rather sad and negative one. And I'd like to see that become less common.

It's certainly one, it's a narrative that I have had personally.

Like, I haven't always left the church well. I've been a part of a few churches.

And I can say for me,

this is why the Bible, I believe, speaks so much to the heart. When our hearts are

hardened, when there's that negativity stack, and our hearts just become so hardened

towards a person, how could we possibly allow the Holy, like, how could we possibly

allow for the Holy Spirit to actually speak to us in that moment when we have a

hardened heart towards someone? I just don't think that's biblical. I don't think

that's, I don't think that can happen.

We also take on this Western ideology that the moment something is hard, that means

that, like, God is speaking to us through our circumstances. If it's getting hard,

that means God's telling us that this is no longer the place for us. When in the

Bible has that ever happened?

I mean, there's so many scriptures who can get into some of them in a minute. I

think, like, James, James Chapter 1 talks about that. It's like, we kind of put all

that truth aside that's laid out in the scripture and just go, this is my truth.

Like, my truth.

Yeah, so what do we do? Like, what do we, what do we do when we're a little

frustrated, when negativity surrounds us,

when we don't get at our, you know, we've talked about this a couple of times,

like the society that we live in is an ROI society, return on investment. What's in

it for me? And when that is, that is the society we live in,

that definitely carries over to how we behave.

We've talked about this before on this podcast or another one, I don't know, but

talk about removing the if, if I statements. Like, if you're, if you're daily

walking around saying if I, if I, if I, if I, well, then that should be a

challenge to your heart that you just, just check that and just say, hey, like,

this is not about me. If I remove if I statements, you know, I don't know, I'm

just trying to give practical steps on how to shift that attitude because leaving

may not be.

helpful because I agree we want to be practical here. I think if you're in a

moment where it's getting really hard at your church, you're wondering if you should

be there or not, I think before you do anything, you should really double check

that you are closely following the ways of Jesus.

And you are in the word and you are meditating over Jesus's words.

I think we need to do that first. Like, focus on his ways because we often have

this complex of what's the will of God in this situation. Well, we know what the

will of God is. It's to walk in his ways. Scripture says that over and over and

over again. So we know that. That's the truth. I told somebody this the other day

who's struggling with, should I leave or not? And I said, you know what? I think

you should stop worrying about if you should leave or not and just really start

focusing on getting in the will of God, which is to walk in his ways.

If you need to leave, leave. And if you don't need to leave, don't leave. But I

don't think you're going to have much insecurity or second guessing on that decision

if you're closely walking in the ways of the Lord.

I might be so flippant to say God might not care as much as well.

and he wants us to have gladdened hearts, not hardened hearts.

And if being in this church environment is leading us to have a hardened heart,

then yeah, we might need to step away. But there's a lot of things to consider

there. So, do you think that that's,

do you think that's helpful? I mean, I think. Well, the question is, okay, when do

I leave? And when is it the Holy Spirit telling me to do so? that's the question.

That's the question that I've dealt with. Personally, it's the question I've helped

several individuals walk through. When do I need to leave? When do I need to say

enough is enough?

You, yes, you are, you work in ministry. You, you've said, here I am,

Lord, send me. You have said, I want to do ministry.

And then you started an interview process with a church, or you started serving on

a team as a volunteer. But at some point, you liked where that church was headed.

You liked, if you're interviewing for a staff, you liked what that supervisor said.

This is where we're headed. This is how many salvations we're seeing every year.

This is how many baptisms we're seeing every year. This is the role you get to

play. This is your task and responsibilities to help us move along this mission. You

were sold out and bought into.

who got you to buy into, it says, you know, that idea is just not very good.

And then you go,

that's, I've never felt that before here. That's the first sign of allowing

negativity to enter into. And then from there, it snowballs. So when do I leave

then? Do I keep fighting? Do I keep going home miserably? At the end of the day,

and this is hard to swallow, and this is for me specifically, the issue is me. I

am the issue. Yes. And that's what I'm trying to say. You know, this is, people

are not going to like this answer. I know I didn't when I was wrestling with some

of this in the past, and I wrested with it more than once. I mean, I just looked

this up because I think it's, it's profound, it's true, and it's simple. James 1,

2, 3, 4 says, count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various

kinds. For you know without the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let

steadfastness...

boundaries, it could, all the various trials that come up working in ministry.

Scripture, the truth, God's word says we count it all joy.

So that needs to be the posture of our heart. That verse isn't, you know, it's not

saying leave or don't leave. It's saying count it all joy. So before we make these

decisions, I think it's a deeper issue that we need to be really honest about in

ourselves. I think you were just honest about it. I think I think you're spot on.

It's an issue with me first. Yeah. If I'm, if my heart is being hardened, I am

not counting at all joy.

So, and you get into Romans. There's so many scriptures that speak to this. How

often do you see it in the Bible?

The Holy Spirit was speaking to people. Well, before they had the Holy Spirit, God

came down and spoke to to, It's like, how often was it like,

hey, it's getting really hard? Go ahead and bounce out. It's not really a narrative

that we read about a whole lot in the scriptures, yet we take in that now. We're

not counting at all joy. We're letting our hearts be hardened, and then you know

what we go do? We go find somebody else, and we harden their hearts in the process

because misery loves company. That's just what we do in our sinful nature. So

before, I just think practically, before we have the conversation about leaving, you

got to check yourself.

Because you might actually have a bigger problem than your status at your church.

It could be the posture of your heart. And it may not be as near as bad as you

think it is.

Their situation at the church, is that you're saying? Yeah. It may be a level I'm

a situation happening, and everyone around you is like, bro, you're upset about that?

Yeah. Like, no one, I don't think anybody even has thought about that ever again,

and you feel like that is the end of your career here. Yeah. Well, and this is

what's so interesting. People say, I feel like this Holy Spirit is prompting me to

leave. And I usually will ask, are you certain it's not the devil?

Like, are you certain? Because The devil actually can work through our emotions.

And he'll get you in our emotions. He can work in our emotions. 100%. And, okay,

so we'll talk about over -spiritualizing. Okay, let's just go there.

Is it who, what is being said in your head? What's being said in your home?

Like what words are coming out of your mouth? Are these truths that are based in

scripture or are you starting to sound like the world or you're starting to think

like the world pretty easy way to discern who are you listening to are you actually

listening to the holy spirit sometimes and this is how deceptive the devil can be

we're in those moments we're like got to get out of here this place sucks i don't

respect the pastor anymore and dude i've done this okay so i just i'm with you if

you're listening and you're here like I don't like this environment anymore. And

through my emotions, I've convinced myself, I think devil had a play in that.

And then I wrapped it up and I'm like, this isn't easily defensible, this position

I have. It's not an easily defensible one because there are so many emotions in it.

So I'm just going to say the Holy Spirit is prompting me. And who can argue with

that? And we talk about this all the time like who can argue with God like let's

stop using God as our kind of night and shining armor in these arguments or

whatever but like we still do it in in Christian culture yeah how often do we

blame things on God and like as your elder in your church or your spiritual advisor

or your boss who's going to argue with you on that you say well it's Holy Spirit

telling me okay man like I got nothing else for you then if it's

It's a trump card. I guess you should do it. I guess you should leave. Well,

because who can question that? Like, who can, like, if someone reaches out to you

and says, the Holy Spirit is telling me to do this, it's like,

oh, okay. This could be theological differences. Frankly, I'm just,

I'm just one to say, are you sure? Okay, so let's talk about, okay, well, I'm

listening to this. That sounds good, dudes, like I'm all there, but I do want to

leave, and I'm human.

So, okay, if that's you, that's okay. Can you leave it better than you found it?

Are you saying, like, I'm in such a state of like, my heart is hardened? My heart,

I've been doing this for two years. I'm done. I just happen to be listening to

this podcast right now. I do absolutely plan on putting in my bouncing out letter,

and I am, I'm done. I do not want to be here anymore. I've already moved on. I've

already started conversations at different organizations or churches or companies. I'm

done. Holy Spirit or not, I don't care. I'm out. So if that's you listening to

this, that's okay. Practically speaking to that, can you leave it better and you

found it? When you say that's okay... Because you're not going to change your mind.

Okay, sure. Yeah. They're not going to change their mind. But can we at least

change their mind about where they might be headed Next. In a second. Okay. Before

you head there next, can you leave that place better than you found it? And can

you leave well? Because what we see in here, mostly today in the churches, is that

no, we cannot leave it better than we found it because we don't want to. Actually,

we want to mess things up. I can't tell you how many times I know real stories of

people leaving churches and manipulating and like messing up things on the way out.

that's just not good that's not good and second can you leave well can you leave

better than you found it and the second one can you leave well both those things

rarely happen yeah do do do you want to be the guy or girl that that leaves well

100 % rather you believe the holy spirit told you the devil told you your mom told

you your wife told you your grandmother told you can you leave well yeah Yeah. And

what is leaving well? My personal barometer for this would be like if you wanted to

still attend the church and people weren't going to be looking at you sideways, like

that's probably like you left staff well. Yes. If you were, if you could still

attend the church and not have conflict, interpersonal conflict or have to go

through, you know,

reconciliation because of all the damage that maybe was done in that process, right?

So maybe use that as like a just kind of an internal test for yourself.

100%. Could I stay here as my home church? Yes.

So then moving on to what's next. So we're going to leave it better than we found

it, and we're going to leave well. Okay, so here's where I might disagree with you

or maybe I'm misunderstood, but like, If you're in a place where your heart is so

hard, and you're just like, dude, I'm just done. I got, I got out here. I don't

want to do the work to figure out if this is a me issue. I'm done.

I agree with you. Leave. Do it.

Actually, I'd encourage you to leave. I'm like, yeah, you should not be on staff at

a church then. You should not be in a leadership role at a church if you're not

willing to do the internal digging. And again, no judgment. Like, I've been there.

So I'm not saying, like, get out of that church. You're a bad person. It's like,

no, you just probably need to exit staff as soon as possible because you've got

some other work to do. Let's just get rid of this for now. That's fine.

But do not go to another church staff.

That's my personal frustration, Dylan, is like, I just see this. People are like,

yeah, I got to get out. I'm sorry, I'm just too far gone, but then they go work

on another church staff. And they'll leave again. It's just, and it happens over and

over again. And I've done some of that. It, it doesn't end well.

There's, there's certain personalities out there that do not fit well on church

staff. That's true. And typically those personalities are,

Oh, boy. Are,

man, I don't know how to say this.

I'm just going to say what I'm feeling.

I don't know if the voice will be to say it. I don't know if it's the voice of

God.

Highly motivated, entrepreneurial, driven,

idea, people,

they're hard to be on church staff because my opinion would be that more than

likely the person you work for, if it's the pastor or the worship pastor or the

guy, you know, the guy, it's going to be their idea and it's going to be their

personality that's boosted out in front. it's going to be their business -minded, and

it's going to be their, it's their business, it's their organization.

And it's hard for someone to come in and go, hey, I have an idea that I actually

might make this place better. I don't know if I see that. Like, are you saying

just most leaders in the church? Well, I'm filtering it a little bit. Yeah, most

leaders in the church are just so narcissistic that they're going to take your ideas

any day in the week. I'm not going to say most leaders. Yeah. I'm just saying

there are leaders out there that maybe we don't need people with ideas.

We don't need motivated staff. We don't need you to be driven. We just need you to

do exactly what I tell you to do. And when I say to do it and how I say to do

it. Yeah. So another way to put it is you're saying the church maybe is not the

most friendly environment for new ideas or creativity. Yes.

Not all the churches. Yeah. I'm sure there's great churches out there that everyone

has a seat at table and everyone has a voice.

But there's also churches out there that are led by individuals who,

this is my organization, and this is my church. And you will do the things that I

tell you to do that if you have a personality of that idea starter,

that motivated, self -driven, think outside the box, you may not be a good

personality for

We're kind of getting off topic, but it's somewhat related. If you're the type of

person, you're a big planner, you're type A. You like to know,

I mean, fiscally, you like to know how much money is going to be in your bank

account when you retire. You want, you know, real financial freedom,

which I think you can totally have financial freedom working in the church. Like,

that's a lie. Somebody says you can't. But maybe you have certain expectations for

it. Well, hold on a second. I don't think we're off topic, by the way. I think

we're helping people think through some real.

of their standard. This is all down to a standard of living. Well, maybe financial

freedoms. We're talking two different terms of financial freedom. Yeah, financial

freedom to me is the Bible says, you know, don't be a slave to the lender. Like

we're talking about, you know, we'll go Dave Ramsey, financial peace. You're not

making $40 ,000 a year that paid off mortgage. It ain't happening. Sure. So that's

what I'm saying. I think we're, I think you're more saying like you don't have to

be, and I agree with what you're saying. You don't have, you don't have to be

financially stressed. You can be stressed free financially in working a church and

make $40 ,000 a year. I agree with that. Yeah. There's difference between financial

freedom. There's difference between financial freedom and financial leisure. Yes.

You know, and so all that to say, I think if you're of the wiring,

and it's okay to be honest, again, yeah, this is wrapped up in the whole topic

here. here. It's okay to be honest, you might not be a good fit for ministry. I'm,

I'll just tell you right now. I'm, I'm with you on that. I worked in church for

many years. I still love the local church. I'm an elder in my local church. I

serve my local church. I run a business that serves the local church. I did not

leave the church to start a business and not be a part of the local church

anymore, right? So I'll just be honest about where I am at. But I knew that I

probably wasn't going to make a great pastor vocational

I'm not a good fit. Most of us do. And that is okay. So if you're listening, just

know, like, I'm part of, I've lived that.

And I saw other people who were a great fit for vocational ministry. And there was

jealousy, there was envy. Man, how come that doesn't work for? And it just, with my

wiring, it didn't work. Doesn't mean I couldn't still be a part of the local

church. Didn't mean that I could still, couldn't serve at a very high capacity. I

mean that I could be in, I could still be in very close proximity and talk about

the church every day.

to be a bad person that you don't need to catastrophize it. Yes, agreed. It's just

at the end of the day, it's still a job. Yeah. That carries the weight in the

responsibility of ministry. Yeah. But in the day, you're still getting paid. It's

still a job. Now, one thing I do want to consider, though, what's more important?

Your job or the church you attend. This is something that people ask often.

They're like, I love this church. My family is so invested in this church. It's a

huge part of our lives. I just don't want to work here anymore. Yeah. That's a

really hard position to be put in.

full -time vocational ministry. What do they do?

They want to work in church, but they can't work at the church that they attend.

And they're like, well, now I feel like I need to leave this church to go get a

job elsewhere. Or they'll say, like, I need to provide for my family. To do

ministry? Yeah. So, but... Do you understand what I'm saying? I do,

but...

So I can't do ministry unless I'm getting paid by a church? No, but let's just,

let's be real. So that would be my, that would just be my challenge. For me, I

don't work in church anymore, but that doesn't give me their... Let's just be real.

Like, it's how they... But there's somebody, it's how they provide... There's somebody

out there, I'm sure. It's how they provide for their family. They work in full -time

vocational ministry. Well, not anymore. They've got let go.

And now they need to to go get a job. And they come to you and they're like, we

love our church. I've got kids. They love this church. My wife loves this church.

Should I go just pursue a job elsewhere? That is not in full -time vocational

ministry so that we can continue to attend this church. Or should I rip my family

out of here? That sounds dramatic. Should I move my family on from this church? So

that I can go work in another church. So it's all about you. So you feel pretty

strongly about that one. It's all about you.

but their church is still, but they are still, their family is still very much

invested inside that church because he felt I cannot leave this church. This church

has been too much for my family. Kids been married here. My family's been changed

here. I believe in the ministry. I wasn't a good fit here. But it doesn't mean I'm

going to make it all about me and take my kids who love the student ministry, who

love being a part of the student ministry, and my wife who loves being her women's

small group. Because as soon as I do that, guess who it is all about. Yeah.

I just have a hard time believing that. And now there are some situations where...

But I got to put food on my kids' table. That's what we hear, right? Like, what

am I going to do? So, okay, so I see what you're saying.

I don't disagree with that. You do have to put food on your kids' tables, on your

kids' table. But when you sit down with your wife and you have that conversation

of, hey, I know how much we love this place. I love it too. It didn't work out,

as you know, for me to work here. What do you think we should do? I need to get

a job. What I'm good at is working inside of a church or working in ministry. Do

you think as a collective, I'm saying if you're married, so your spouse, as a

collective decision here, should I go work in a common space locally so that we can

stay invested inside of this church? or do you feel like as a family?

family in this way. What do y 'all think, church leaders? Like we, again, we go

back to the very beginning of this, that you can leave well, and you can receive a

blessing on the way out by doing it the right way. But as soon as your wife or

kids start repeating your negativity at home, talking about some individual, that then

again, you are not leading the right way. Yeah. I'm going to all end with my

personal sentiment on that topic.

I think I'll be so bold to say,

very important, first of all, like just attending a church, being a part of a faith

community, it's commanded by God, like we're called to do this,

and now making a decision on where we're going to go to church, having that be

strictly influenced by our employment in that organization

just doesn't sit right with me. I've done it. I've done it. I see it done all the

time. I don't think that's the way. I think some of the most beautiful stories are

of people who were a part of a local body, who were a part of a church. And then

that led to them making their way into a leadership role in that church. And that

called a vocational ministry was put in front of them because of the ways that they

served that body and were a part of that body. but this the moment it becomes I'm

a vocational we've talked about this with politicians right the career politician it's

like nobody wants a career politician honestly I think a lot of people don't

necessarily prefer career pastors either like oh didn't work out so now I'm going to

go jump over here I'm going to jump over here it's it's It's,

we see it in the Bible, but it's actually not necessarily spoken of fondly in the

scriptures, right? Of the career pastors,

the rabbis, right? Like, I think that

sometimes we kind of get off course in Western culture with that. And it's like,

and now not just like senior leadership, but like worship staff. I'm a worship

pastor. I'm a vocational worship pastor. Didn't work out here. My vocation is moving

out, you know, to some church in another state. I know nobody there makes no sense.

But yeah, I'm moving my family across the country to go be a part of this other

church. I'm not saying in all situations that's wrong. Yeah. But that seems far too

common to me. Yeah.

You did that, actually. Yeah. You did that.

I just realized that. Sorry for calling you out. No, I mean, I've, a lot of the

things that I say on this podcast are I'm talking to myself or using life

experiences or using my own story. I was just talking to somebody about this either

day. Someone made a joke, you two idiots aren't even in ministry. Y 'all are sitting

around talking about how to be better in ministry. And I was like, I am 100 %

talking about my personal stories. Well, first of all, I am more in ministry now

than I've ever been. So whoever said that, it was a few miles, it was a passive

aggressive jokester who was just messing with us. Yeah. And he said, or then I

said, I am 100 % talking about 16 years of hard ministry that I went through and

just pulling out my own stories. And if I can help one person in a scenario do

something different than the way I did it, then I will always continue to do this

podcast. And that, you know, he just was like, oh, okay, you know. So that was a

very extreme dramatic example. I understand that. At the same time,

it is, yes, I have, I have left a big church and gone to another big church.

I have in my position, who are in our positions as worship leaders,

creatives, production directors, whatever, producers, that's easy to do. It is easy to

do to leave one church and go to another one. Because if you have any sort of

influence, if you have any sort of talent, churches want you on their staff. And

again, it's normal for someone to get hired without any sort of like spiritual back,

you know, interview. It's all about your talent, your looks. Do you have what it

takes to be a part of this organization that's doing big things? It's very easy to

bounce from churches and churches. I live through that. I'm not saying that I was

talented or any of that stuff, but I did bounce big churches. I didn't bounce a

ton. I mean, I did two churches. One big church, went to another big church and

came back to the same big church. So I didn't, you know, you're judging me. I

didn't bounce around that much. But I did do that. Yeah, I did too. And so again,

so it's like, no, I'm not, I'm not ever going to sit on this podcast and say,

thou shall not do this. I didn't do it. I'm saying, hey, I did all this stuff.

I'm just trying to help somebody out, you know. Yeah.

I hope you listening have gotten that in our hearts here. In no way do we want

this to be a

judgment hour. That's not it. It truly is.

God's been very kind to me and my family through the many mistakes that I've made

in ministry, whether it was a vocational or not vocational ministry. I've made

mistakes when I was employed by the church. I've made mistakes just serving in the

church as a volunteer.

God's been kind through it all, but it doesn't mean that we can't tell others about

it to make sure maybe they can glean some wisdom from some of those mistakes. So

nothing we've said here. Most things we've said here are not things that we haven't

done ourselves. Yeah, 100%. So, Anyways, thanks for listening if you made it this

far for you. If there's any like, we know there's so much nuance in this situation.

So feel free. I respond to my DMs. I know Dylan does. Get in the comments. Ask

questions. That's the most important thing you can do is get around people who are

going to spur you on and not just continue to grow that negativity with you. So we

appreciate you joining. Stay encouraged. See you next time on the MXU podcast.