The MxU Podcast

Paul:
[0:00] In production, it's easy to swing to the gear side of things,

Paul:
[0:03] especially when you have a heavy workload. It seems to me that the one thing that always falls through the cracks is the onboarding, the training, all the people stuff. If you reverse it, you can sustain yourself way longer. Sometimes we set things up and do things, number one, because they're cool and because they're the way I would do it and I would want it. The problem is, is I'm not always running it. I have raised the hurdle because it was what I wanted and it was about me.

Spencer:
[0:35] Maryland Community Church. That is where we are today. And Tara Hote. Paul, thank you for having us, brother.

Paul:
[0:42] Absolutely.

Spencer:
[0:43] Why are you laughing at me already? I don't know if you're going to start preaching

Dillan:
[0:46] By saying Paul.

Spencer:
[0:48] My favorite character in the Bible. We're not in Maryland. We're in Indiana.

Paul:
[0:54] Tara Hote.

Spencer:
[0:55] Paul, what's your role here?

Paul:
[0:56] I'm the central production director.

Dillan:
[0:58] Okay.

Spencer:
[0:58] You've been doing production here at the church for how long?

Paul:
[1:03] I came to the church in 2008, and I went on staff in 2014. Okay. A bit.

Dillan:
[1:11] Central. So how many campuses do you have?

Paul:
[1:13] We now have three. We launched our third one in April.

Dillan:
[1:15] What's the distance between them?

Paul:
[1:17] We have one on the other side of town, so about a 15-minute drive, 10, 15. And then we have one in Brazil, Indiana, which is 25 minutes.

Dillan:
[1:26] Okay.

Paul:
[1:27] So when I first got here, they were doing two different services. So they were doing their normal Sunday thing, and then they had a next-gen-y type of, you know, back, I mean, this is back before next-gen was a word. And they were doing a service called Exchange where they were just kind of being a little bit more, edgy is a horrible word, but, you know, kind of like what we do church now. Yeah. And, you know, they were ultra creative, you know, lots of, you know, things like motorcycles on stage, you know, back in the day, all that kind of stuff. And then... The leadership recognized that the direction that the church needed to go was that direction. That's not always what happens. It's usually like the senior pastor is like, no, this is my thing. And so our senior pastor at that time was Vince McFarland. I mean, I wasn't part of all the stuff. But from the outside looking, it looked like both clearly felt that God was leading this church in that direction. And so instead of having separated services, he was close to retiring anyway. And so it was like, bring Scott along. They did like a mentorship for a few years and then it was passed the baton

Paul:
[2:55] And then let me come alongside you. And, you know, it was very healthy.

Paul:
[2:59] It was the first time I'd ever seen that happen in a healthy way. Yeah.

Dillan:
[3:03] Okay. So you've seen transition take place in a positive way and a negative way. What is the...

Paul:
[3:09] I haven't seen... Let me clarify. I haven't seen a ton of transitions, but I've seen a lot of division and a lot of tension and a lot of ugly situations in churches.

Dillan:
[3:18] Okay. Why is it important, that senior leadership, senior pastors do transition well? Because when they don't, it affects everyone under them in the org chart and or the guests. They can see that. They can feel the tension. Why was it important for you to see that this particular church would transition well, ultimately leading you to a legacy here of a decade of serving on staff here and having your whole family here?

Paul:
[3:47] Question i i think there's an element of uh humility that is uncommon um there is a It was evidence that you're hearing from the Lord. It's visually evident that this is not about you, that you are hearing from the Lord. Both of you are hearing the same thing. And, you know, you are open-handed. Yeah. You know, and that is not always something you see. Yeah. Unfortunately.

Dillan:
[4:17] It's not, especially in the production and worship space. We hear, unfortunately, more stories about leaving unwell or that tension of breaking.

Paul:
[4:24] Or in style of expression of service, too.

Dillan:
[4:28] Sure.

Spencer:
[4:29] Okay, so I'm curious. Something I'm really excited about in this podcast is like we don't know you that well. A lot of people that we've had on the podcast recently, we do kind of know a bit. Where are you on the spectrum between... I'm a tech guy who wants to be building racks all day long and building systems and so on and so forth to the other side of like, I just want to shepherd people, pastor people. I'm a people guy.

Paul:
[4:58] You had to ask that one, didn't you?

Spencer:
[5:00] I'm curious.

Paul:
[5:01] Okay. You're going to go there. That's always been a struggle.

Dillan:
[5:05] But I don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

Paul:
[5:06] No, there's not.

Dillan:
[5:08] For the record, there's not a right or wrong answer. No.

Paul:
[5:10] I don't mean it that way. I mean, you're really going to go there. Yeah. I, you know, that's where you have to be honest. Like I've really struggled with that in my tenure. Um, number one with where am I on that and not being where I should be.

Dillan:
[5:25] Okay. Gotcha.

Paul:
[5:25] Um, you know, almost, almost 15 years in now that's changing. It's a slow boil. Unfortunately, there is a, especially when you're like, um, I'm ADHD. PhD, I want to see immediate returns on my work. Yeah. And you get that with projects and racks and things like that. You know, people, it's a slow burn. You've got to invest the time and you may not see results for, you know, years. And so. Forever. Yes.

Dillan:
[6:00] And they'll probably burn you on the way out.

Paul:
[6:02] Or you spend all this time and then they just go to another church, you know. And so, but, you know, for over a decade, I was by myself here. And so that was even harder because.

Spencer:
[6:14] By yourself, meaning you didn't have any real leadership team on the tech side?

Paul:
[6:18] I was the only production staff person. Yeah. For two campuses. And, you know.

Spencer:
[6:23] For how many years?

Paul:
[6:25] 12 okay yeah because i um jp we got jp a year ago okay

Spencer:
[6:32] And you guys just because for some churches they're like we don't even have a tech person how many people again are across both locations when you were the only one in that role

Paul:
[6:40] Uh we're above three under five okay three

Spencer:
[6:44] To five thousand yeah yeah so pretty heavy lift for for just yeah

Paul:
[6:49] Especially all disciplines yeah

Spencer:
[6:51] Yeah when you first got here were you a pretty different dude than who you are now when it comes to where you you'd

Paul:
[6:57] Ask yeah i have to ask other people but i think so yeah

Spencer:
[7:00] Yeah like for sure just where you are where you kind of land on that spectrum and well i

Paul:
[7:05] Came here as a single person and i now have a wife and three young boys so drastically different life yeah so

Spencer:
[7:13] Yeah like everything yeah i could i could totally imagine what comes with that um what has been that journey of you you were showing me video control earlier and you were like man i'm really just like bouncing around campuses most sundays now like equipping people you know you were like we can fully automate lyrics but like i still want to have opportunities for people to run lyrics and serve and so it's like i when you say stuff like that i'm like oh this is a people guy he gets he understands people um whether or not that's energizing to you or not yeah right i'm curious though for you i

Paul:
[7:51] Still care about my people though i'm still know what's going on in their lives i still have personal relationships with all of them yeah yeah um my role has changed in the last year yeah um and so it's been a little different um but when i mean i struggle with that like it's easy to especially in production it's easy to swing to the gear side of things yeah um and especially when you um

Paul:
[8:20] Have a heavy workload it seems to me that the one thing that always falls through the cracks is the you know the onboarding the training the all the people stuff is always at the at the end of the week that never you never get to um and you know it it feels stupid to say but it's like it's taken me over a decade to find out or to figure out that if you reverse it you can sustain yourself way longer yeah yeah and i'm not there yeah but it's like you know we like we're especially like we're utilizing, um, you know, you guys' tools and stuff. And we're trying to create a process for, um, you know, how we, how we do things as a, as an organization. Um, and we are, you know, we've just this year kind of gone in with worship because, you know, when I first came here at worship was one team production was another team. They were separated. And so the first thing that at that time it was our worship pastor Brett the first thing we did was combine the team and so now this year

Paul:
[9:33] We have a new central worship leader and he and I both have gone all in with the MXU platform and are trying to build it in a way that we have team leaders and you know just the whole gamut yeah and it's it's just a different way of thinking that I have not gotten right up until you know well I haven't gotten right yet but I'm trying yeah it's a process yeah absolutely

Spencer:
[9:58] Yeah it's much easier so I'm curious you

Paul:
[10:03] You say there's not a right answer, but there kind of is.

Spencer:
[10:06] Well, but you know,

Dillan:
[10:07] It's. You have to have gear and you have to have systems and you have to have techs. Like you have to. I'm. I would say I'm on the, I've been on the opposite. I've been people like that's been my world.

Paul:
[10:17] Yeah.

Dillan:
[10:18] But without the guys that want to wake up and get motivated to build a rack or without the guys that are motivated to have a clean front of house or a console that is smooth, like we can't exist either. Like we, there has to be this coexistence.

Spencer:
[10:32] I want to dig into that a little bit with you because I think Dylan and I don't get to wrestle through that. Like usually when we're having these conversations, it's with worship pastors as of late that are like, yeah, it's all people. If you could just advocate for yourself a little bit here and some of the tensions that you wrestle with, when you hear, when you're listening, you know, to us or other people talk about like, it's not this, it's this stuff over here. And I'm sure there's some bit of conviction in there with you. Oh, for sure. But then there's also probably a part of you that's like, bro, you don't understand what I have to deal with day in and day out. You don't know what I'm asked to do. And if I don't worry about this stuff, if I don't make this stuff a priority, this, this, and this, and this is going to crumble.

Paul:
[11:24] Yeah, I think the real issue though is like the difference between what I'm asked to do and what I put on myself to do and then complain about the workload. Like I've had- You see this guy's face? Yeah, well, that's been a lesson I've had to learn, especially like with my family and my wife. Like it's easy to go home and be like,

Paul:
[11:47] Been working seven days a week for like a year now. And then she starts, of course, taking up this offense because she's going to be on my side, you know, and then it's like, you know, why would you make, you know, get into all that. And I'm then like building up an offense towards someone who didn't do anything in the first place. Like, and then I have to, you know, come to the realization that they didn't ask me to do that. I put the pressure on myself to do it. And now I've got a bad attitude about it, or I'm telling everybody I'm overworked. And it was an expectation that I put on myself. Because most of us are doers, and we care passionately about our church, and we want to move it forward, and we want everything to be awesome. But nobody's given me a list of these things that I have to accomplish by the end of the week. but yet on saturday afternoon when yeah you know you've worked all week and it's like i can't believe this and i didn't get a day off again it's like well you did it to yourself like yeah so i have to be careful how old are you i'm 52 which is i didn't think this way you know years back

Spencer:
[12:59] Yeah well that's i mean the reason he asked that and it's like what you're saying is very wise and it's it's it's hard to

Paul:
[13:07] Never been accused of that

Spencer:
[13:08] Before give some practical examples of like I chose to do this I didn't need to do that like times where you've been like yeah I was pushing 60 60 plus hour weeks no days off but like I spent two to three full days doing something that I put on myself that I did not need to be doing

Paul:
[13:31] Yeah I think that comes with number one, being a bit OCD and, you know, just caring about

Spencer:
[13:41] I saw your racks.

Paul:
[13:42] I probably care too much about the way wiring looks, you know, stuff that nobody ever sees or give a crap about. But it's a reflection of me. Yeah. You know, and so we internalize that. Like, this shows people who I am. And if I just run this cable and just lay it across, you know, somebody's going to think that I don't care.

Dillan:
[14:06] It's funny you say that because the first thing I immediately hear is you care about your work.

Paul:
[14:13] For sure.

Dillan:
[14:13] You're an engineer. And again, I'm just going to say it. I just, that's a huge, that's like, I'm like listening to you going, I don't really like this guy. Like he cares about his work. His racks look great. He, he's an engineer at heart. Like he wants to make sure he engineers well and things work.

Paul:
[14:28] Yeah. But that can quickly go into, well, this project should have taken a week and now it's taken three weeks because you are minutely managing every little detail and that, you know, can quickly snowball into, you know, because anything at work is away from your family. And that's been, you know, something I've had to manage, especially with three young boys who, you know, are in travel sports and things like that.

Dillan:
[14:55] But do you have any regrets of looking back? Oh yeah, absolutely. Man, I wish I would have brought guys along.

Paul:
[14:58] The answer to that's not as often as I should. Yeah. Um, because many times it's easier to just get it done. Of course. And it's better. And it's faster. I think that's something I'm in the middle of learning right now is because

Paul:
[15:12] if it, if you always have to do it, then you're going to always have to do it.

Spencer:
[15:15] Okay. So you, you've been doing this for a while. Definitely, uh, definitely longer than the national average of somebody in your role. Right. I've been doing this for a while. I'm 52 years old. I got young boys. Yeah. what does the next 10 years look like for me in this role? What does the next 10 years for me look like in ministry? Sometimes seeing 10 years down the road is too far, maybe even three years. Where are you at on that front? We talk to a lot of folks who go home every night wondering, am I doing what I should be doing? There's that lack of grounding. Yeah, for sure. You seem pretty grounded in what you're doing.

Paul:
[15:56] Yeah, I went through a season of that. um i would i think it's like four or five years ago um we through beginning of covid we had a couple um hires that came in and then covid hit and you know that was a pretty big learning area for everybody that was a hard season um complicated with a um you know a season of of hard lessons learned um the lesson that we learned in that was um team trump's talent and we definitely hired for talent and um found out we needed to hire for team and um and so during that uh there's a couple years in there that i mean i was in

Paul:
[16:52] My, my, um, creative pastor and the people I work with here know now, but at the time they didn't, I was interviewing with other churches, you know, I was ready to go. Uh, it was the whole grass is greener type, you know, which, you know, it's not. Um, and I mean, I was on, there was a church in Tampa and there was a church in Austin that I was really close to going to visit. And I was at the final ends of the interview process. And I clearly heard God say, um bloom where i planted you you know and so it was it was so clear that it was like i cut it off and i mean i've not had that those like i wonder what's next type of thing i mean i've just it's been i've been grounded um kind of because i heard god say i put you here and i'll let you know when it's time to go somewhere else

Dillan:
[17:45] What did your prayer life look like through that transition through that potential.

Paul:
[17:48] Transition. I mean, that's, I mean, kind of what it's always been. I mean, I don't think I have this crazy, you know, disciplined prayer life, but I've been around the block to know what, you know, how to hear God's voice, you know. I mean, there's obviously been, you know, all of us have seasons where we get distracted, you know, we get distracted and have a lot of noise and I'm, I'm very guilty of not having much quiet, you know, but, um, I, I think a lot of, you know, a lot of times we don't want to admit when we're running or when we want to

Paul:
[18:28] Jet out of here because it's hard or we think we deserve something else, you know, or we want to matter and all this stuff. But, um, you can easily get into the trap of like, what I feel like I deserve, you know, and what, like, like your own plans for your own life and things like that. And, you know, uh, I'm, I've been doing this for this amount of time. I should be here or, you know, not feeling like you are, uh. have the influence at your own church that you think you should have or whatever. And then, you know, you know, many times you got to, you got to kind of, in my life, at least, you know, I mean, for years, I wanted to tour for many years. I, you know, when I was in college, I thought I was going to be a worship pastor. I mean, I thought that was my calling. And I, you know, at 52, I can sit here and say, I strongly believe that, that God didn't allow that happened because it was a selfish motivation i wanted fame i'm not fame but i wanted to matter you know i wanted people to it was an identity yeah oh absolutely that was where i was placing my worth um how

Dillan:
[19:38] Old were you at that time.

Paul:
[19:40] In my 20s 30s

Spencer:
[19:42] Okay you said you're a pk

Paul:
[19:44] I am

Spencer:
[19:45] Your dad is he

Paul:
[19:46] Uh he's still he's still dad's been in the ministry for over 55 years

Spencer:
[19:51] You said for a long time you ran from ministry was that running from the church as well what was that season for you

Paul:
[20:00] I just i mean i've just seen all the crap that everybody you know most pks have seen yeah my dad was a was a back in that day as a minister of music okay um so he wasn't a preacher but i mean he does preach, but his, his main, um, you know, growing up, he was, uh, uh, what we would now call a worship leader. Um, but that was in the Southern Baptist church in the South, very different. And, um, you know, there was a lot of trauma probably, you know, a lot of crappy situations that, you know, that I had insight into that, you know, made me like, I don't ever want to do that yeah

Dillan:
[20:46] So you're didn't like you're saying like your dinner talks like at home sitting around the dinner table was like you're hearing stories of well i.

Paul:
[20:53] Saw my dad was treated You know, so. Yeah. And that sucked.

Spencer:
[20:58] Yeah. Were you, were there seasons where you weren't really a part of the church much? Or were you always kind of like, no, I'm, I'm a part of the church. I just don't want to get too close.

Paul:
[21:08] I was always a part of the church. I just didn't want to work for it. I just didn't, you know, I mean, we're all in ministry. It doesn't matter what you're doing. You don't have to work for a church to be in ministry, but I didn't want to be in vocational ministry. Yeah.

Dillan:
[21:22] What does the next 10 years look like for you?

Paul:
[21:24] I think the next 10 years of my life, uh, professionally looks like handing things off and, you know, trying to develop, um, my guys and number one, you know, you can only physically do some of this stuff. So, you know, my body's starting to do the whole, can I still do this? Yeah. You know, can I be on my knees running cables? Yeah. You know, but, um, I mean, I love it, but like, I'm, I feel myself transitioning in a mindset to like, okay, I need to like oversee and not overdo, I guess you could say. Yeah. Um, but then the other side is like, I've got three boys that I want them to you know, fill in the gap.

Dillan:
[22:15] Yeah. Do you think, do you think they'll have any sort of ministry interest?

Paul:
[22:18] Well, they're all, so I'm, I grew up on the music side of things. I went to school for music. That's, you know, I'm on both sides of this, uh, vocationally I'm on the production side now, but all three of my boys are very musical. Um, and especially my middle son, he will, he's, you know, a lot like me. So trying to get him to push some faders and, And, you know, turn some knobs and stuff. And then my older son, I mean, they're all singing and kids praise and trying to get them involved in the youth worship and stuff. So, yeah.

Dillan:
[22:51] So the next decade, you know, starting now, your next, like, ministry adventure is... Kind of seeing and spotting those around you that maybe naturally carry that influence of, you know, these are natural born leaders potentially, or they are have leadership attributes that I see in them. Also a little technical. Yeah. Is that what you're currently doing? Are you trying to identify those individuals?

Paul:
[23:16] Well, I just now started having staff. Yeah. And so.

Dillan:
[23:19] Even in the volunteer space, though, do you have volunteers? Do you kind of have an eye on going? These could be strong volunteer leaders for us. Yeah. Do you have production managers at each campus?

Paul:
[23:28] No, not currently.

Dillan:
[23:29] Okay. But do you have a production lead at each campus? Like who schedules at the other campus? Who does like the task?

Paul:
[23:36] Yeah, well, we have one girl who is from a volunteer side doing some of that,

Paul:
[23:44] Especially at the multi-sites. But we like, for instance, JP does it here. Yeah. And then we are getting ready to go down the path of hiring another one. Um, so we will then have a production staff at two out of the three. Cool. And then, um, we have a good high capacity volunteer who's like, um, you know, setting up all the weekly stuff, um, just making sure, um, she also leads worship. So she's kind of dual. Um, and then what, you know, I spent out like an hour or two every Thursday for a year or two developing her and now she has kind of saved my bacon you know like i don't think i could have done this without her um you know having to run three campuses with two people you know two plus a high capacity volunteer you know has been the the piece that has kept it all together yeah and so

Paul:
[24:47] That has been a big recognition of hey if you replicate that, you know? Um, and so one of the things JP and I are talking about is, um, how do we, you know, I pour into two or three who are on staff. They each have two or three that they pour into, and then they're challenging those two or three to pour into two or three. It starts to trickle down and, you know, you blink four years later, you're in a whole different. Yeah.

Dillan:
[25:16] You have volunteer lead teams, you have departments like, yeah.

Paul:
[25:18] And we're doing that in worship right now they we have worship lead you know uh not like section leaders but like you know a drum lead things like that and so we're trying to do the same thing with production so that's awesome

Spencer:
[26:02] I'm curious if you have any hot takes these days as things, the tides are changing, production in the church is ever evolving. I don't know how much you're on social media. I know you listen to podcasts.

Paul:
[26:19] I too much.

Spencer:
[26:22] Yeah, just as the guy with some wisdom who's got some years under his belt. Are there certain things that you just find yourself... contemplating more often these days like why are we doing this this way

Paul:
[26:37] As a church or as in our church as a community oh wow

Spencer:
[26:41] In the church production

Paul:
[26:42] Community i don't want to get myself in trouble no

Dillan:
[26:44] Dude trust me you know how many times we've been in.

Paul:
[26:46] Trouble i think one of the things that i struggle with is this whole um trend of platforming yourself

Dillan:
[26:59] What do you mean.

Paul:
[27:02] But the problem is is i have friends that are doing it and it's like i appreciate it like um but where's the line to where we are because there's an aspect of it obviously that is helping others you know like let me show you how to do this like i've i look i've learned a ton from you know a few specific people who are you know putting it out there and it's like it's awesome and even to the point where it's like well i should why am i doing that you know it's like why do people want to know me like i don't

Spencer:
[27:38] Okay okay this is good this is great i want to i want to dig in a

Paul:
[27:42] Little bit where does it cross that line yeah

Spencer:
[27:43] I want to dig in a little bit more here we talk about this a lot and people can say well easy for you to say you guys are platforming yourself you have a podcast and blah blah blah and i get some of that pushback um We, I talked to a lot, you talked to a lot of people who are influential in the space. I talked to a lot of people who are influential in the space and, and they die on the hill of like, I only do this because it's so helpful for our community. Our community loves it. Come on. And that, but no, but like, this is a great opportunity. And, and I didn't know you were going to say that. It's awesome. I love it. It just happened.

Paul:
[28:20] Did I just step in it?

Spencer:
[28:21] No, but I think I'd really want to hear, I want to dig beneath the layer a little bit.

Paul:
[28:27] I think part of those i come from a different generation

Spencer:
[28:31] I don't know i don't know if it's generational

Dillan:
[28:34] But i agree with that a little bit so i'm it's hard to look at that those videos for me personally and go what was the motivation behind this video and then, three days later, roll out a new platform or software or a resource for the church? Like, is the motivation to taking a phone, recording how you do things, to actually help churches and people who don't have the resources, so you're giving them free content to see how to, or is your motivation, you know, in three days you're rolling out a new process, a new system to sell, a new software, something for the church to buy. that is the that is where i'm looking at it going hmm.

Paul:
[29:19] Yeah but mix you did that same thing in the beginning too

Dillan:
[29:21] I mean like we all we're.

Paul:
[29:23] We're at we're at you know at our one day and we're talking about trip you know parallel and triple compression and do this this with this and the majority of the people there are 200 and below who probably is mixing on an x32 and like and and i'm guilty of like taking like and then coming back here and making it so complicated that my volunteers can't even run it you know it's like it was counter productive in a sense yeah so the heart behind it wasn't

Spencer:
[29:56] Well but but that's something that we've really we've made a lot of changes at mxu

Paul:
[30:02] Because because

Spencer:
[30:03] Of some of what you're sharing

Paul:
[30:05] Right now and that's not calling out lee because I think at least one of my heroes.

Dillan:
[30:09] Yeah.

Spencer:
[30:09] Yeah. And like Jeff and Andrew and the way that like MXU events started was.

Paul:
[30:14] Yeah. Don't hear that as a criticism. Yeah.

Dillan:
[30:16] But I think. I mean, it was a criticism and it should have been it should have been criticized. I remember sitting in those events. Also, people physically telling me or like kept me on the shoulder saying this is great for churches who can afford Digico's.

Paul:
[30:29] Yeah, sure.

Dillan:
[30:30] This is not great for 99 percent of the churches out there.

Paul:
[30:32] But see, that's been a lesson that I've had to learn here and I'm still learning and actually is like Sometimes we set things up and do things, number one, because they're cool and because they're the way I would do it and I would want it. The problem is, is I'm not always running it. It's like I'm learning to to lower the hurdle.

Dillan:
[30:54] Yeah.

Paul:
[30:54] I'm having to learn that because for many years I have I have raised the hurdle because it was what I wanted and it was about me. It wasn't about, you know, because then it's dependent on me, you know. And then I complain I can't leave for a Sunday. And so we're turning that around.

Spencer:
[31:14] This idea of, you've said it a couple times now, feeling the pressure like, should I be trying to platform myself? Is that part of the core tension? Is it just like, is it, man, all these people doing this and it drives a level of insecurity of like, man, I feel these people are making me feel less significant?

Paul:
[31:39] I'm not well not for me

Spencer:
[31:41] Yeah what like what is it for you I want to understand some of that

Paul:
[31:46] I think number one you see a lot of people doing something you start considering like is this something I should be doing you know like um there's an there's an element of like well how else can I help them I because I like for instance like automation things like that like I struggled with that for a long time and I learned things from other people and it's like well should I share that? You know, should I help other people learn how to, you know, be able to learn how to do it or this is cool or show them this, that or the other. Um, but I mean, I don't want to, you know, It's always, we're always looking for side hustles and way to make extra money and stuff. And that's a good way to do it. But, um, I, I guess I just wrestle with the, when does it become self-glorifying? When does it become, um, about when did it come selfish? When does it become, you know, when do we cross that line?

Dillan:
[32:42] I think that's a fine line of balance of like, Hey, if I keep my algorithms up, it's more traction, it's more people, it's more engagements. It's to, it's, it could be more sales. Yeah. And I'm saying that all out loud because I don't know if that's a problem. I just don't. I don't know if that's an issue when you are trying to build a business. Unless the motivation is just to fill your bank account.

Paul:
[33:03] Yeah. I mean, practically, I don't have time to do it. Like, be honest.

Dillan:
[33:05] Yeah, and you see churches.

Spencer:
[33:05] Well, for sure. How does that hit you, though, is like, do you feel like there is like an online community that is like competing for your attention?

Paul:
[33:14] For my attention, no.

Dillan:
[33:15] From a church staff standpoint, a production director inside of a church of 14 years, do you feel like there is a group of individuals that are constantly trying to get a hold of you and sell you something through social media?

Paul:
[33:25] No, I don't feel that. Okay. But I will say...

Dillan:
[33:27] Is that what you're asking?

Spencer:
[33:28] Yeah. Yeah, because sometimes I hear that from people, and that's why I'm so curious just to hear it.

Paul:
[33:34] I think where I'm coming from is I don't remember a time before, I guess, what, the last, I don't know, six eight years that we had like church celebrities you know like yeah people that were inside of production yeah even they've always been around

Dillan:
[33:52] I mean senior pastors have books and that's.

Paul:
[33:54] Becoming more of a thing

Dillan:
[33:56] Worship pastors are on tour it's a trend for.

Paul:
[33:58] People it's a trend yeah and there is actually you know the phrase platforming yourself yeah you know and it's just like I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying it's something that we can, we should wrestle with. We should question, we should talk about it. Um, you know, there it's possible to be permissible, but not be wise. It's possible to be beneficial. It's possible to be all these things, but it's, there's nothing wrong with questioning. I'm not calling it out. I'm not criticizing. I'm just saying there is a trend

Paul:
[34:30] happening and I think it's fair to wrestle with it.

Spencer:
[34:33] Yeah. So I'll, all go out on a limb and say this from my perspective i think i the the concern i have in kind of the lane of what you're talking about is the amount of people who are attempting to platform them i'll just speak for myself i've really wrestled with this i often go back to i don't work in a church it's true i some some days i really wish i did like i i but i don't working at church anymore yeah um and this whole idea of like so i can speak because i was i was there and i knew his journey in this like lee fields is a great example the reason lee was so impactful at mxu and his time here was because he was working in the church yeah no people looked up to him yeah they were like

Paul:
[35:22] He had skin in the

Spencer:
[35:22] Game you were and even you know andrew great example and like people were like he's just like me he's like doing what i do and that's inspirational what they're doing in the church is inspirational they're like me and i thought that was awesome and i think that people who continue to do that i agree it's awesome you're sharing it there's community there is a rising tide of people there is this trend of quitting the church to platform yourself

Paul:
[35:52] Or your platform gets big so then

Spencer:
[35:54] You yeah yeah and i'm not talking about Lee in that like that's a totally different I'm more just saying like Now, here we are, fast forward, there is, I feel like I see at least one post every couple weeks, if not every week, that is stepping into this new season, no longer on church staff, building XYZ for the local church, for the people, whatever. there's there's all the language and that is what is starting to become a little bit more concerning to me is it's becoming a trend to quit the church and platform yourself

Paul:
[36:35] Well it's because when you have an exit strategy when things get hard you're going to use it yeah i don't know nobody stay not not many people stay through the hard times i i was told a while back by um Um, our creative pastor, who's now my direct report, uh, we were talking about something and he was like, he said something along the lines of, uh, you have to go through the, the hard seasons to earn the right to enjoy the, the good seasons. And, and I've seen evidence of that in my own life. I, especially here, I, you know, I feel like we're in that season right now where we had, But I have the right to be in this season because I've stayed through the suck. Many people run. Many people leave. Grass is greener. I don't want to do this. This isn't fun anymore. I can make more money doing it, all that stuff. Not many people stay.

Dillan:
[37:38] Yeah.

Paul:
[37:39] Which is why you have your typical answer to how long you've been here. it's under five yeah under five years which again which again it's not always bad yeah it becomes bad when you're doing it your way because you want to like you know when you're not like clearly for me i wanted to run i wanted you know i wanted to get out of here um and at that time it was self-focused i thought i deserved more than what i was getting it's not always money things like that but I just I you know you like I should be here and I'm here you know um which is very upside down thinking to you know um we're here to serve not not earn you know in a sense and um you know for me I clearly heard that I was supposed to stay yeah and I've really haven't look back since

Dillan:
[38:40] I think i think when when god has something for you to say he'll give you a microphone and i think after that comes the platform, I think we look at the platform and go, I really want to be on that platform. I don't really have anything to say right now, but if I just shoot enough videos of me doing something, I'll get a microphone and I'll gain influence. I think we're talking about two different groups of people. I look at one group of people and I go, man, these people are adding significant value to the local church. And I think you have another group of people that say, I love that platform. Like I've never been up there, but I can see why it's so addicting.

Paul:
[39:16] Or we don't say it, but that's really what we're doing.

Dillan:
[39:18] And I want to be on that platform. What do I need to do to get this kind of influence? What do I need to do to be like Brad Bramer? And I think, that's where we see a lot of people sitting currently. And I think that's what I hear you guys talk about. That's what I'm kind of just dissecting it down and saying, I think there's two groups of people here. I think you have three or four or five really influential church adding or church value adding individuals who are doing a very good job helping people through their social media channels. and you have another group of people that see those five and go, I want that platform. But they don't have anything to say.

Paul:
[39:52] I agree.

Dillan:
[39:52] They don't have nothing to say.

Paul:
[39:53] Because those ones that you're mentioning are... started out with a mindset of, I just want to share the information and help, and then not expecting. And then they blew up unexpectedly. But what we were talking about earlier, it's the, well, I want to do that. And then I want to go chase that blow up.

Dillan:
[40:15] Then you have the individual that's working in church staff that's been there for three or four years, that's miserable with their job. They're not good at developing people. They have no systems, but they work at somewhat of a cool church and they can use that title of that church to help. So they hear, I can gain influence because of where I work and I can help people. And it just doesn't work that way. At the end of the day, nobody cares what church you worked at. They want to know what you can do right now in this moment to add value.

Paul:
[40:41] Yeah. But the root of that can be expressed in many different ways. The root of that is I need significance, that I need identity and that can come in what we're talking about that can come in a title you know that can come in I I need I want to be creative pastor not because I you know any other reason except that people may look at me different you know I need identity and that so that can come out in many different forms but it's the same core issue that you're not finding your identity in who God made you to be. You're not finding your identity in who he says you are. You're not finding your identity in him. You're trying to find it in other ways. And so it's just, it's a symptom, different symptoms of a core problem.

Dillan:
[41:33] Yeah.

Spencer:
[41:35] Yeah, I'm learning more as we have this conversation, as I have this conversation with churches, that the world of church production on social media is incredibly small. And But those who are in it think it's incredibly big.

Paul:
[41:54] I would agree. Define what you mean by very small, though.

Spencer:
[42:02] Well, first of all, it's representative of a very small, small, small, small percentage of the church. Okay, so it can be really confusing when people talk about the church and the state of church production and how church production is today. and we go, well, we're just going to go to what we can see. We have way too much information.

Paul:
[42:23] Because you mean it's like a handful of big churches speaking the loudest?

Dillan:
[42:28] Yeah.

Paul:
[42:28] Yeah, that's what you're saying.

Spencer:
[42:30] You know, it's just like, it's what you see. And that's how humans, it's like, well, and I, yeah, I'm finding that I don't know. I'm starting to kind of, I'm starting to question personally, like, I know a lot of good can come from social media. I've made a ton of relationships. I've learned a lot, but I'm actually really starting to think that like the social church production community thing actually is just more bad than good. And I don't know. I'm like, I'm wrestling through that. We wrestle through that.

Dillan:
[43:03] Like, I don't know if I agree. I think it's, I think it shows the immaturity of people in church production, but I wouldn't blame social media.

Paul:
[43:09] But I can be guilty of that.

Dillan:
[43:11] I would blame us.

Spencer:
[43:11] Yeah. Well, it's a human issue. Yeah. It's, it's, it's all, it comes back to just like humans being humans,

Dillan:
[43:17] Right? It goes back to the comparison issue. Yeah.

Spencer:
[43:19] It's just like, it just always ends up being comparison for people. When I talk to churches and, and they're like, I'm really struggling with this or this or that. And it's like, why? Oh, cause I saw so-and-so and I saw so-and-so. I'm like, I don't think you actually have a real problem here.

Paul:
[43:32] Like this is just comparison. Or you see, like I saw them do it, so we got to do it too. and they're skipping the step of that might be a great idea, but how do I take that and then morph it into what our people need? Or, you know,

Spencer:
[43:48] This is a conversation that comes up a lot. So-and-so was my hero. Yeah. I loved learning from them. And now they no longer in the church. And I'm like, should I leave the church too? Or now they're doing this thing. Should I be doing that now too? it's like it's all just idolatry it's like well i thought you said you love learning them but now it sounds like you want to be them like yeah and so it just social media continues to come back to this looking over your shoulder oh they're doing that maybe i need to be doing that too and it no longer becomes just about humbly like learning from one another. I don't know.

Paul:
[44:33] Yeah, I think there's an element of that. Yeah, for sure.

Spencer:
[44:35] Okay. I know we're coming up on time here. Man, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing and being a part of the community for so long at MXU, even over all the years of how we've evolved and changed. And it's really cool to hear how it's impacted you and your ministry here. And then, yeah. I feel like it's been really good to sit here face-to-face with you and talk because I feel like a lot of the conversations we've been having on the podcast lately, you are not represented super well in these conversations. I think that we've, and that's something that I've realized, it's like we need to better understand somebody like Paul who's been in a tech seat for 14 years and can speak to some of these conversations we've been having. So that's cool.

Dillan:
[45:26] Someone who's not in the tech seat, sitting beside someone who's in the tech seat, just as a constant reminder for me that we've got to have both sides of the aisle here to make this thing happen and happen well.

Dillan:
[45:40] Just hearing you talk, I've learned. Yeah, it's been good.

Spencer:
[45:44] If you want to learn more about Maryland Community Church, we will put the link in the description below. And if you want to learn more about MXU, obviously you can...

Paul:
[45:53] No, you do want to learn more. You do want to learn more about MXU.

Spencer:
[45:56] Yes. We'll put the link in the description below as well. And then Dylan, Weekend Ready Playbook is here.

Dillan:
[46:03] It's here. Yeah. WKND ready.com.

Spencer:
[46:07] Can you please just like, what's like the elevator pitch?

Dillan:
[46:10] Well, I can just tell you the format of it is unique alone because I was saying it's not written for those that are, I'm reading a book right now called 33 strategies of war. Yeah. It's 27 hours. If you listen to it on audible. Yeah. That is not a book that I'm writing. It's very like, it's, it's, it's out there. This book is broken down very practically 16 years. I've taken notes in situations that I've been in, in churches, events, volunteer meetings, staff meetings. I've written down notes for 16 years, pages and pages, pages. I've taken those notes of life, hard lessons learned on the platform, off the platform. It breaks it down into reflection questions for you personally, for your team, team questions. How are we doing in this moment? What are we doing? It's also written from a point of view that you can lead team huddles with it on Sundays. It's very practical. It's very easy. It's very simple, but very, very effective, in my opinion.

Spencer:
[46:59] We don't have enough material like that, i think actually

Dillan:
[47:03] We have a lot of material but this one i really do believe this one is unique i really do yeah because i think i think most people like this like this conversation we just had can can read a very short chapter it's a day read so each chapter is just two or three pages, and go i i mean i deal with that every, every sunday yeah.

Paul:
[47:22] Is it gonna be an audiobook

Dillan:
[47:23] Uh you do you want i like your voice do you want to read it do you want to be the do you.

Spencer:
[47:30] Want to be perfect audio

Paul:
[47:32] Voice he does that's production daddy right there production daddy he's he's like the father of all of us

Dillan:
[47:38] He probably would prefer father over daddy.

Paul:
[47:40] Well i'm yeah i'm not gonna call him daddy yeah plus i'm closer to

Spencer:
[47:43] Yeah i was gonna say you guys are like two or three years yeah

Paul:
[47:45] No just one of the coolest people he would

Spencer:
[47:47] Like that y'all thank you for joining us we will see you next time on the mxu podcast