The MxU Podcast

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What’s the
real reason why volunteers are leaving?

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I just feel like I'm a 40 hour, week

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free employee The issue is
we just don't care about them that much.

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You say,
oh no, I do, I do. I'm just too busy.

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It's like, well, you would change
your priorities if you really cared.

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When's the last time?

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we even talked about how many salvations
I've been part of.

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Like, I don't I don't even know
what's happening anymore.

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Yeah.

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Your ministry is getting
in the way of ministry.

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I got to tell you – Is this on?

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Yeah it's on – the real reason.

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The real reason your volunteers quit
is because you're a jerk.

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Yeah I get that.

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I really do.

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I totally get it.

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I'm joking, but sometimes that might be
the root of this issue.

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Yeah, I would say a lot of people leave

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because of their direct report.

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And especially the volunteer

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role.

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Position 100%.

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Couldn't agree more.

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Episode over. Yeah.

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It's you.

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Yeah. It's you.

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Not them.

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That's not the whole theme here.

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But I do think that we
we need to dive into.

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Some practical ways

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we can evaluate the situation to know,

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man, is this a is this an issue

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with our culture or?

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There are some very real times
where it's like

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that volunteer.

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I'm not going to use the word crazy,
but maybe acting a little crazy

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in their either expectations
for the environment, ministry.

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It goes both ways. But.

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The reason

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we've titled this like the
the real reason they're leaving

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because I think oftentimes we say

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we cast a different
narrative for the sake of

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PR, we
can sleep at night, whatever it may be.

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Right. Yeah.

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I don't think there's one reason
why they leave.

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I think there's several reasons
why one would leave.

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There's 3
or 4 that stick out more than others.

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Yeah, maybe 1 or 2 in my mind, but yeah.

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Yeah, well, I feel like
from what I've heard over the past,

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over the years, is
I just feel like I'm a pawn.

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I feel like
I'm just putting in the machine and

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do do do do do do.

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Don't don't don't, don't, don't

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do this more.

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We need you here more.

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We need you at this event.

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It's like. What?

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I just feel like I'm a 40 hour, week
free employee

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missing a lot of things.

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Like, I don't even know a lot.

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When's the last time?

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You know, we even talked about
how many salvations I've been part of.

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Like, I don't I don't even know
what's happening anymore.

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Like, I'm just shoved in
and then shoved out.

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And I know that's been a real common thing
for what people leave

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because they don't feel like
they're a part of anything.

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They’re just a doer, you know.

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I, I couldn't agree more.

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Simply put, I think.

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One of the core tensions we face
is that we see

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these people as our volunteers,

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and they see themselves as congregants
who are just trying to serve the church.

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And we can't seem to figure that out. Like

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we. Story time.

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I'll share a story.

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I was talking with the volunteer
the other day.

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They're like.

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Been a part of this church
for maybe a year or so,

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and they're like, I was really just trying
to sit on the back burner for a while.

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Pastor
on Sunday had a really convicting message.

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It was like, stop being a consumer,
get involved in our church.

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And they're like, I'm going to do it.

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I'm going to get involved.

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It's great.

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Love to hear that.

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They said they wanted to get involved
in the summer choir at their church.

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Okay. The what?

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Summer choir.

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Their church is having,
like a summer choir or something like,

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they have seasonal choirs?

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I don't I don't fully get it,
but they were explaining it to me.

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I don't know.

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I was like, interesting, summer choir.

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So. They.

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Why are you laughing?

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I just my mind starts going through
like different scenarios

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of like, “dude,
you're on the summer choir.

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I'm on the spring choir.”

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That's exactly where I went.

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I didn't really ask more questions.

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And who is like the better choir.

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Like, obviously
the summer choir is not the better choir,

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because no ones available
to serve in the summer.

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Everybody's gone
on vacation. So that's like

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they said they wanted to get involved.

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Worship team.

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They're like, be on our summer choir.

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This is on a Sunday after church.

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They go up there
like want to get involved.

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Summer choir.

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Monday

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they have eight emails.

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No communication

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other than eight emails in their inbox.

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Nine sorry,
because eight of them were requests.

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One of them was a Planning Center invite.

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So you got to get the invite in.

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And it was.

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Eight invites to serve

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every single Sunday of summer
in the choir.

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Yeah, that's
why it's called the Summer choir.

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They sign up for the summer.
And guess why?

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Because no one attends church
in the summer and you can't sing probably.

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So come be in the summer choir. Well.

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And then it. You're like, I can't.

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But then.

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But and then
and then the simple instruction to them

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was let us know which ones
you could be there for.

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Yeah. By accepting or declining. Right.

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And it's like

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that.

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If I'm a volunteer, I'm
a congregant in the church.

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I'm like, I want to serve.

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At that point, I'm like, okay, guys,
never mind.

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Pastor's message was nice. Never mind.

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I'm over it, like,

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because we just see, it's
exactly what you just said.

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As a leader, that can seem supernatural.

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Send him a email. Get him,
get him in the system.

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It's It's just another volunteer.

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Man. When I heard that,
I was like, yeah, that

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we talked about like onboarding.

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A lot of that goes into onboarding.

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There's a lot that goes into that problem
there.

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But it's just it goes in line
with kind of what you were saying.

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They’ve missed the mark of why
people serve.

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We've talked about this
like you just said a lot.

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To send somebody a PCO invite
as their first connection to serving in

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the ministry is not the right way to do
that, and I'm not about to dive into it.

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They can go back to the last 15 episodes
we've talked about this.

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It's not the right way to do it.

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It already
starts them off on the wrong foot.

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You're just a need.

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That’s all you are.

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And so people feel that.

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And when pastors on stage going

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“get off the bench, experience
life changes and serving.

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Become part of a team.

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Be relied on, rely on others.

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You know, we need you as a church.

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We need you to step in and

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and go serve and love on people.”
And that's the sales pitch.

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And then just

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get a PCO invite for eight invites
to some random

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ministry or random

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summer choir.

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It just it just it's just it's already
starting off the wrong foot.

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So how do you how do you fix that? Like,
how do you backtrack that?

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How do you.

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Yeah, if that's the way you start
and you have a

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high volunteer turnover,

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I'd reevaluate the whole process.

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Yeah.

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I think this is a deep
this is a deep issue in leadership.

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Bear with me a little bit

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because this is like we're diving in
just even into a layer deeper.

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But I think that this is the root
of some of this.

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I recently heard somebody
talking about how in their prayer life,

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I think they were using analogy of like
a, well analogy

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like “God, just like clean
the water in my well,” like I'm

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and there's areas in their life
they need to repent of and they and

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but they knew like “I don't
I don't really want the water

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my well to be clean”
or else I would do these things.

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I know the truth.

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I'm just asking God
to change the water in my well.

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But like,
I actually might need a whole new well.

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Yeah, because I.

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God, can you help me with this?

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This problem
I have of understanding your truth,

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but not wanting to follow your ways.
Right.

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Sounds really deep,
but it really stuck with me

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because I feel like this happens
in our leadership often.

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Like, God, bring me new volunteers.

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Help me.

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Help me be a better steward of my people.

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Right.

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And these all sound really good
and really noble

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and the right things we should be talking
to God about as leaders.

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But we know what you just said.

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Like sending a Planning Center like that
is not how you bring a new person

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into the ministry. We know that.

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So the issue I'm finding
is that we just don't

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actually care as much as we say we do.

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Pastors
preaching, getting new people involved.

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Got to do our job and allow an opportunity
for new people to get in.

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So we're going to do it.

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But it's like we know
what giving our best is in an area.

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And for some reason,
we choose not to give our best

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when it comes to

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getting people
and keeping them in our ministry.

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Yeah. Does that make sense?

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Is that a little too far fetched or?

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No it’s not.
We've talked about this again.

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It's a lot of work to do that
the question still stands

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is why are volunteers leaving?

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Right.
That's how this whole podcast started off.

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What's the reason why What’s the
real reason why volunteers are leaving?

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So yeah, we could
we could dissect that down.

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I mean, I think I really do
think the number one reason

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is that we just don't care
enough about them.

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Yeah, it sounds really harsh, but
that, like, that's the headline for me.

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We just don't care
enough about them as leaders.

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Yeah, because people don't just leave
for no reason.

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There are certain stories, things
that happen,

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marriages fall apart,
deaths in the family, so on and so forth.

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Kids are struggling, like life happens.

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People leave, they take a break.

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New job, whatever.

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That's not what we're talking about here.

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We're talking about the people who

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the more common narrative we hear,

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which is my volunteers
just aren't sticking around the other day.

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And she's the key
- she plays keys, her husband plays drums.

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And they were very faithful
with their church.

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I mean, they served every weekend,
especially the husband.

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Well,
they got, you know, when they got married

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so they were dating,
became engaged, got married.

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What comes after that?
They started having babies.

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And so

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but again, they were a part of the church
for years, very invested.

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Nothing having babies, no calls,

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no text messages, no food trains,
whatever.

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It's called meal train.

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Trains. Yeah.

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Food train sounds nice too.

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Like get on a train.

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Just eat so much food, for miles and.

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Just miles worth of

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eating food, get on the different carts,
like, let me go to the next one.

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It's like different cuisines
and all the different

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towns.

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That sounds so good.

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And you just.

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I just felt like I was on Theo Von’s
podcast for a second with you, and

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the next.

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The only correspondence

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I had weeks after having these babies
were a Planning Center request to serve.

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And are you? Is this for real?

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Is this all we are to them?

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Right? You're right.

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It's the lack of care.

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Yeah. What if.

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What if they were in labor
and something happened to that baby.

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The church would have never known
because they didn't ask.

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How are things?

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Do you need anything from us?

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Like, we know that you've faithfully
been serving for a decade,

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and you've been here for the church
every weekend?

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Yeah,
but you've been on for six weeks. Yeah.

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We don't know anything about you.

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Yeah, “can you serve though?”
Yeah, we see it as like,

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this almost completely divorced
initiative from being the church.

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It's like we have the

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church and we have volunteering
in the church over here.

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It's like,
no, it's all one thing together.

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Part of being the church

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is serving the church,
serving one another.

00:13:24:02 - 00:13:24:09
Right.

00:13:24:09 - 00:13:27:09
Like, in other words, when people show up

00:13:28:01 - 00:13:30:19
to play keys on Sunday in your church,

00:13:30:19 - 00:13:34:02
they are choosing
to serve the members of your church.

00:13:34:14 - 00:13:39:07
You included tech director, your wife,
your kids, your family, your in-laws,

00:13:39:08 - 00:13:42:23
your parents who are in the service
like they're serving your family

00:13:43:03 - 00:13:46:07
with the talents and gifts
that God has given them, right?

00:13:46:08 - 00:13:48:10
That is them volunteering in the church

00:13:48:10 - 00:13:50:16
like they they
they don't want to be consumer.

00:13:50:16 - 00:13:52:09
You're saying it
shouldn't be departmentalized,

00:13:52:09 - 00:13:54:14
like it shouldn't be like volunteers.

00:13:54:14 - 00:13:57:06
I'm just I'm more trying
to paint a reality

00:13:57:06 - 00:14:00:06
that like, yes, volunteers,
they get scheduled to do a task.

00:14:00:06 - 00:14:04:16
But like we
we forget the spiritual component of this

00:14:04:17 - 00:14:07:18
right in, in like the fact that this is

00:14:09:00 - 00:14:11:10
a spiritual discipline in the church,
just like tithing,

00:14:11:10 - 00:14:15:11
just like other aspects in our church
that we expect of our congregants.

00:14:15:11 - 00:14:18:19
So we're asking them to come in,
bring their gifts and talents.

00:14:18:23 - 00:14:22:15
Some people choose to serve the church
with the gifts

00:14:22:15 - 00:14:26:10
and talents that they actually get paid
to do outside the church, right?

00:14:26:11 - 00:14:30:11
Like, I know audio engineers
who who are professional audio engineers

00:14:30:11 - 00:14:32:19
that choose to serve their church
and they don't take a paycheck

00:14:32:19 - 00:14:37:01
because they're like, “No, this is how
I want to serve my my community.” Right?

00:14:37:02 - 00:14:42:19
So they are they are putting that in
and we as their leader are going.

00:14:42:23 - 00:14:45:04
That's their responsibility.

00:14:45:04 - 00:14:47:20
We don't we don't

00:14:47:20 - 00:14:52:06
often take up the responsibility of like,
“okay, so how do I serve them”

00:14:52:22 - 00:14:57:00
while they are serving me,
not serving me as a ministry leader?

00:14:57:07 - 00:14:59:07
A person who needs a body.

00:14:59:07 - 00:15:01:00
Position filled like, no.

00:15:01:00 - 00:15:03:06
They're serving me
as like their fellow brother and sister

00:15:03:06 - 00:15:05:19
in Christ as part of this faith community
with them. Right.

00:15:05:19 - 00:15:07:18
But you know what I'm saying? Like.

00:15:07:18 - 00:15:10:07
But I also want to highlight

00:15:11:10 - 00:15:14:10
because you you said earlier

00:15:14:23 - 00:15:17:17
I may just translate this in my own,
my own little small brain,

00:15:17:17 - 00:15:19:08
but when I called you a jerk.

00:15:19:08 - 00:15:20:19
No no no no.

00:15:20:19 - 00:15:22:04
That was a while ago.

00:15:22:04 - 00:15:23:20
I still have not forgot that.

00:15:23:20 - 00:15:27:07
No, but you said volunteers over here
and church congregants over here.

00:15:27:07 - 00:15:29:10
And I was like,
wait a second. You're onto something.

00:15:29:10 - 00:15:33:03
Because churches
absolutely separate those two.

00:15:33:08 - 00:15:37:07
Like you're the dream team
or you're the promise keeper or you're the

00:15:37:09 - 00:15:39:05
whatever cool name church’s are coming up
with.

00:15:39:05 - 00:15:42:05
I have a different title
than just a normal church.

00:15:42:14 - 00:15:43:22
You do a special events for me.

00:15:43:22 - 00:15:47:14
I wear a special shirts like
it just contributes to consumerism, right?

00:15:47:15 - 00:15:49:18
It's like you guys are the people
who. I'm not.

00:15:49:18 - 00:15:51:05
I don't have opinions on that.

00:15:51:05 - 00:15:55:17
I'm every church I think I've been at
has always done separate events for

00:15:55:18 - 00:15:56:23
and separate stuff for volunteers

00:15:56:23 - 00:15:59:14
like my opinion is not
we shouldn't be doing that.

00:15:59:14 - 00:16:00:07
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

00:16:00:07 - 00:16:05:05
I don't know where my opinion falls,
but that doesn't help when you do

00:16:05:23 - 00:16:09:03
make me feel exclusive
and you make me feel like a million bucks

00:16:09:03 - 00:16:11:20
and I get invited to a suit
and tie events.

00:16:11:20 - 00:16:15:02
But then I'll only still ever hear
from you for from Planning Center.

00:16:15:03 - 00:16:15:21
Yeah. What?

00:16:15:21 - 00:16:19:01
What are you
what am I? Why am I exclusive?

00:16:19:05 - 00:16:20:20
Because I just serve?

00:16:20:20 - 00:16:21:06
Yeah.

00:16:21:06 - 00:16:23:13
That's a
that's a, that's a question to ask like.

00:16:23:13 - 00:16:27:00
Yeah, it's it's it's I often

00:16:27:01 - 00:16:31:02
think of like my oldest son sometimes
I'm like, hey, I expect more of you.

00:16:31:03 - 00:16:31:21
You're the oldest.

00:16:31:21 - 00:16:34:03
I need your help with your sisters,
so on and so forth.

00:16:34:03 - 00:16:35:21
But sometimes I also feel convicted.

00:16:35:21 - 00:16:38:11
He's like, yeah, but I'm still your son.

00:16:38:11 - 00:16:43:03
Yeah, I still need
I still need to be a kid, too.

00:16:43:06 - 00:16:46:10
And I and I wrestle with that as,
like a father.

00:16:46:10 - 00:16:48:18
And I think we wrestle with that
as leaders.

00:16:48:18 - 00:16:51:03
Where it's like, oh, you're my volunteer.

00:16:51:03 - 00:16:53:19
Yeah. But like, I'm still in your flock.

00:16:54:21 - 00:16:57:22
I'm still like, I still need a pastor.

00:16:58:09 - 00:17:00:13
I still need somebody to care about me.

00:17:00:13 - 00:17:04:03
And I think we forget about that
as church leaders when we do.

00:17:04:04 - 00:17:07:21
I totally agree, there's nothing wrong
with, like, having a special volunteer

00:17:07:21 - 00:17:11:01
for the dinner for the people
who are going above and beyond and serving

00:17:11:01 - 00:17:14:14
in your church, because we know
that 100% of the church is not serving.

00:17:14:14 - 00:17:17:17
And so we want to call that out
and celebrate that.

00:17:17:17 - 00:17:22:19
But we can't say, oh, these people,
those these high capacity volunteers,

00:17:23:09 - 00:17:25:15
we don't need to worry about them as much
because they're bought in.

00:17:25:15 - 00:17:28:03
Like sometimes
we make the mistake in the church.

00:17:28:03 - 00:17:31:01
Oh, they they're serving two weekends.

00:17:31:01 - 00:17:31:16
Three weekends.

00:17:31:16 - 00:17:32:05
They're good.

00:17:32:05 - 00:17:34:22
If they're serving a lot,
that's an indication that they're happy,

00:17:34:22 - 00:17:36:02
they're good.

00:17:36:02 - 00:17:37:20
And those are
the ones that are leaving like crazy.

00:17:37:20 - 00:17:42:04
Those are the ones that are like, man,
I've been here for a decade,

00:17:43:00 - 00:17:46:23
and I've never been invited
to someone's home for a meal.

00:17:47:10 - 00:17:53:06
And you had no idea that my my kid just
graduated last last week from college.

00:17:53:07 - 00:17:54:20
You didn't even know my kid's name.

00:17:56:08 - 00:17:58:15
Like,

00:17:58:15 - 00:18:00:06
that's the that's the issue.

00:18:00:06 - 00:18:04:05
And and it,
simply put, just comes down to we–

00:18:04:06 - 00:18:08:11
And please, person listening to this, I'm
right there with you.

00:18:08:11 - 00:18:10:07
I've been there.

00:18:10:07 - 00:18:13:07
The issue is we just don't care about them
that much.

00:18:14:13 - 00:18:15:20
You say, oh no, I do, I do.

00:18:15:20 - 00:18:16:14
I'm just too busy.

00:18:16:14 - 00:18:19:14
It's like, well, you would change
your priorities if you really cared.

00:18:20:07 - 00:18:23:03
And that's okay,
because we get we're we're sinful people.

00:18:23:03 - 00:18:25:21
Like, we just we we

00:18:25:21 - 00:18:29:05
there's no shame in this,
but we just got to call it as it is.

00:18:29:05 - 00:18:32:13
Like, yeah, I just am not really caring
about my volunteers that much.

00:18:32:20 - 00:18:33:20
What could I do?

00:18:33:20 - 00:18:36:16
These are the people that are actually,
like right in front of me.

00:18:36:16 - 00:18:39:22
This is like the first opportunity
that I have to

00:18:39:23 - 00:18:42:23
pastor people in our flock,
in our congregation.

00:18:43:03 - 00:18:47:07
And so and there's no excuse, like,
there's tools you could use to to

00:18:47:08 - 00:18:51:03
remind yourself to keep up with birthdays,
to keep up with kids names.

00:18:51:14 - 00:18:53:23
It's very doable.

00:18:53:23 - 00:18:56:11
Yeah. It's just super. It's very doable.

00:18:56:11 - 00:19:00:07
But we got new installation happening
this month.

00:19:00:08 - 00:19:02:19
It's just crazy busy like.

00:19:02:19 - 00:19:05:00
Man, I'm hot on that one.

00:19:05:00 - 00:19:08:07
It just it's I've been on both sides
as a leader

00:19:08:07 - 00:19:11:07
and a volunteer
who just felt like absolute dirt.

00:19:12:14 - 00:19:13:22
And then I've been that

00:19:13:22 - 00:19:16:22
same leader who turned around
and treated volunteers like dirt.

00:19:17:03 - 00:19:21:02
And then when they leave or they decline,
they got a heart issue.

00:19:21:10 - 00:19:24:01
Something's going on there being crazy.

00:19:24:01 - 00:19:26:00
They they don't get it.

00:19:26:00 - 00:19:30:03
They they weren't they weren't
all that good at their craft anyways.

00:19:30:14 - 00:19:33:01
Right. Like we can be pretty nasty.

00:19:33:01 - 00:19:33:16
Oh yeah.

00:19:33:16 - 00:19:34:10
You've already said two,

00:19:34:10 - 00:19:37:13
that I heard quite a bit heart issue
and they weren't really good anyways.

00:19:37:14 - 00:19:39:11
Yeah. Like wow.

00:19:39:11 - 00:19:42:06
What what did we miss with that person?

00:19:42:06 - 00:19:44:07
Now we're judging their heart
and we're decided.

00:19:44:07 - 00:19:45:21
Hey, you weren't very good anyways. Yeah.

00:19:45:21 - 00:19:49:17
So I just say it's like actually a win
for me and I don't have to deal with you

00:19:49:19 - 00:19:50:08
all those things.

00:19:50:08 - 00:19:50:14
Yeah.

00:19:50:14 - 00:19:51:01
As a leader,

00:19:51:01 - 00:19:55:03
I've definitely said all those things
to people who have poured out everything.

00:19:55:16 - 00:19:56:12
Yeah.

00:19:56:12 - 00:20:00:14
With, with,
without a penny of pay and missing

00:20:00:14 - 00:20:04:13
soccer games
and and you just spit them out.

00:20:04:14 - 00:20:06:11
Well. Look, we're all human.

00:20:06:11 - 00:20:09:02
We were hurt in the process, right?
We feel rejected.

00:20:09:02 - 00:20:10:22
Maybe we're burned out as a leader.

00:20:10:22 - 00:20:13:22
“Screw them. I don't have time for this.

00:20:14:03 - 00:20:17:22
Get out of here like I'm on a mission.”
“God's

00:20:17:22 - 00:20:20:22
using me in some
special ways in this church.

00:20:22:01 - 00:20:22:18
You're in the way.

00:20:22:18 - 00:20:24:00
Get out!” Yeah.

00:20:24:00 - 00:20:25:07
It's like we're forgetting, like.

00:20:25:07 - 00:20:27:20
No, no, this person is exactly God's.

00:20:27:20 - 00:20:29:23
That that is like his first assignment
to you.

00:20:29:23 - 00:20:32:17
Is that person. Yeah.

00:20:32:17 - 00:20:35:00
Not Christmas,
not the thing that you're planning.

00:20:35:00 - 00:20:36:23
Not the event, not the install, not the.

00:20:36:23 - 00:20:41:02
No. That person that that is actually like
the meat and potatoes of why you're here

00:20:41:15 - 00:20:45:10
and you wrote them off for your agenda.

00:20:45:14 - 00:20:46:04
Yeah, I remember.

00:20:46:04 - 00:20:50:00
Gosh, I had this the other day on an event
I was at.

00:20:50:00 - 00:20:54:11
I remember just praying God give me
opportunity today to speak into somebody.

00:20:54:11 - 00:20:55:04
Right.

00:20:55:04 - 00:20:58:23
Send me somebody that will just be around
that I can just go.

00:20:59:05 - 00:21:01:20
Have the discernment enough to go?

00:21:01:20 - 00:21:02:22
I need to talk to that person.

00:21:02:22 - 00:21:06:02
And I remember as a church leader
and I've had church leaders do this.

00:21:06:15 - 00:21:09:15
Wake up and God send me somebody to lead
today.

00:21:09:17 - 00:21:12:17
Send me somebody
I can have a spiritual conversation with.

00:21:12:19 - 00:21:14:15
Send me somebody that I can disciple.

00:21:16:00 - 00:21:18:01
The reality of it is he already has.

00:21:18:01 - 00:21:21:01
You have 40 volunteers in your team
that you're neglecting,

00:21:21:16 - 00:21:24:07
so why is he going to continue
to send you people?

00:21:24:07 - 00:21:26:22
When you’re neglecting the people
that you've been praying for.

00:21:26:22 - 00:21:27:14
Yeah.

00:21:27:14 - 00:21:30:14
You're neglecting those that God has sent
you and you're

00:21:30:14 - 00:21:33:19
neglecting those,
but you're still praying for that. Why?

00:21:33:23 - 00:21:36:17
Because you need a drummer.

00:21:36:17 - 00:21:39:02
You need an audio engineer.

00:21:39:02 - 00:21:40:10
You need a scheduler.

00:21:40:10 - 00:21:42:07
Yeah. So, God, send me a scheduler.

00:21:42:07 - 00:21:43:20
Yeah, that's the prayer.

00:21:43:20 - 00:21:46:15
Yeah. And God's going,

00:21:46:15 - 00:21:50:00
but your prayer, your words are send me
somebody to disciple.

00:21:50:01 - 00:21:52:01
Yeah. Send me somebody to love on.

00:21:52:01 - 00:21:53:02
Send me somebody to minister to.

00:21:53:02 - 00:21:56:13
But know your heart is saying
I just need a drummer.

00:21:56:17 - 00:21:59:09
Yeah. Your ministry is getting
in the way of ministry.

00:21:59:09 - 00:22:02:23
And I think that is that is something
for us as leaders in the church

00:22:03:06 - 00:22:06:20
to constantly be going to the Lord about.

00:22:07:01 - 00:22:08:15
I would encourage you to do this.

00:22:09:20 - 00:22:12:11
Ask God,

00:22:12:11 - 00:22:13:09
where are the areas?

00:22:13:09 - 00:22:17:07
Please make it clear to me, God,
where are the areas that I have let

00:22:17:13 - 00:22:21:14
my my ministry
take priority over your ministry?

00:22:21:19 - 00:22:27:06
Because we've we start to play little
g god a little bit.

00:22:27:06 - 00:22:31:12
Oh he's called me to do this
I feel I feel confirmation in this.

00:22:31:12 - 00:22:32:18
I'm anointed in this area.

00:22:32:18 - 00:22:35:18
I need to do this, this and this and this.

00:22:35:20 - 00:22:38:20
Meanwhile, the flock has left the building

00:22:40:03 - 00:22:43:05
and we just got to be honest
with ourselves.

00:22:43:05 - 00:22:45:01
We don't care enough about them.

00:22:45:01 - 00:22:48:01
And.

00:22:49:07 - 00:22:50:02
Like you said

00:22:50:02 - 00:22:53:02
at the beginning of this episode,
there's many other

00:22:53:09 - 00:22:55:16
there's tactical things.

00:22:55:16 - 00:22:57:01
Are they getting trained and equipped?

00:22:57:01 - 00:23:00:15
Well, that's a care problem. Frankly.

00:23:00:18 - 00:23:04:20
Are they being properly resourced

00:23:04:20 - 00:23:06:21
for the coming weekend,
maybe they're not, and so they leave

00:23:06:21 - 00:23:08:05
because they're
frustrated and discouraged.

00:23:08:05 - 00:23:10:18
Well that's a care problem again.

00:23:10:18 - 00:23:13:21
Like all these things
kind of just come back to a care issue.

00:23:16:06 - 00:23:17:20
Are they being scheduled too much?

00:23:17:20 - 00:23:20:01
Care issue.

00:23:20:01 - 00:23:22:13
Are they not being scheduled enough?

00:23:22:13 - 00:23:25:06
It's a care issue, right?

00:23:25:06 - 00:23:29:07
I mean, let's think like when I've heard
a lot of volunteers say, I just got.

00:23:29:23 - 00:23:32:23
I just stopped getting scheduled.

00:23:33:20 - 00:23:34:23
Sorry, I just

00:23:34:23 - 00:23:37:23
I have heard that actually
way too many times.

00:23:38:05 - 00:23:42:23
I just just stop scheduling me for stuff
or they, like, asked me

00:23:42:23 - 00:23:47:09
to go mix at that one campus 30 minutes
down the road that I've never attended.

00:23:47:09 - 00:23:51:05
And that's typically the route of a leader
who just has a really hard time

00:23:51:05 - 00:23:52:21
with confrontation of any sort.

00:23:52:21 - 00:23:56:11
Yeah, I mean, I know professionals
stop getting scheduled.

00:23:56:12 - 00:23:58:08
Care issue. Yeah, 100%.

00:23:58:08 - 00:23:59:17
You don't want to have hard conversations.

00:23:59:17 - 00:24:01:07
You just don't care enough.

00:24:01:07 - 00:24:03:17
Yeah, it's way easier for me
to stop scheduling you then.

00:24:03:17 - 00:24:04:10
Then. Yeah.

00:24:04:10 - 00:24:07:00
Then shoot you a text and say,
hey, let's go to breakfast. Like.

00:24:08:02 - 00:24:08:22
And then the power

00:24:08:22 - 00:24:11:22
of what that conversation could do.

00:24:11:23 - 00:24:12:16
Don't care.

00:24:12:16 - 00:24:13:15
Yeah.

00:24:13:15 - 00:24:16:06
For you as a leader and for them

00:24:16:06 - 00:24:17:18
as well.

00:24:17:18 - 00:24:19:09
Let's take off the titles for a second.

00:24:19:09 - 00:24:20:12
Not leader or volunteer.

00:24:20:12 - 00:24:23:12
Just brother or sister in Christ. Yeah.

00:24:24:02 - 00:24:27:01
Sometimes we get we get really caught up
in the title to I'm the leader.

00:24:27:01 - 00:24:30:10
I got to do it this way
and that and it's like, let's just

00:24:31:07 - 00:24:36:00
take it back for a second and realize
whose you are and where you are.

00:24:36:10 - 00:24:42:07
And the very specific
and special assignment

00:24:42:07 - 00:24:45:07
you have being a part of the church,

00:24:46:02 - 00:24:49:01
which is the most it's

00:24:49:01 - 00:24:52:01
unlike anything else on this earth.

00:24:52:23 - 00:24:56:14
It's like we can compare it to businesses,
we can compare it to nonprofits.

00:24:56:14 - 00:25:00:01
But like really when we look at
it through a biblical sense,

00:25:01:01 - 00:25:05:08
this assignment is so unique. And.

00:25:09:12 - 00:25:14:11
We have to care more than any other,

00:25:15:07 - 00:25:17:16
like, you know, whoever you look up to,

00:25:17:16 - 00:25:20:08
whether it's, oh, that leader over there,

00:25:20:08 - 00:25:22:14
if we don't care, what are we doing?

00:25:22:14 - 00:25:24:06
Right,

00:25:24:06 - 00:25:27:06
I don't know, yeah.

00:25:30:16 - 00:25:33:15
I feel like
we've been dogging on the leader a bit.

00:25:33:16 - 00:25:35:15
Well that's. Yeah.

00:25:35:15 - 00:25:37:11
Because I do think that is the root
problem.

00:25:37:11 - 00:25:38:14
It's a leadership issue.

00:25:38:14 - 00:25:41:08
But could we, could we speak to.

00:25:41:08 - 00:25:44:08
Let's assume
somebody really getting all this right.

00:25:46:08 - 00:25:46:20
Speer.

00:25:46:20 - 00:25:51:11
Most charitable selves say
like they are nothing like you and I

00:25:51:11 - 00:25:54:15
and they're just amazing people
and they don't make these mistakes

00:25:54:17 - 00:25:56:08
and they're like, no, I care.

00:25:56:08 - 00:25:58:17
Yeah, my volunteers are leaving.

00:25:58:17 - 00:26:01:09
I need to know the real reason
you guys haven't given me the real reason.

00:26:03:22 - 00:26:04:17
What does the most

00:26:04:17 - 00:26:07:16
charitable Dillan say to that?

00:26:07:19 - 00:26:10:19
They’re a bad leader.

00:26:13:13 - 00:26:15:02
I wasn't expecting you to say that.

00:26:15:02 - 00:26:15:21
That's funny.

00:26:15:21 - 00:26:19:01
No. We know.

00:26:19:01 - 00:26:21:15
We know that volunteers are not perfect.

00:26:21:15 - 00:26:26:10
We know that volunteers
sometimes do have heart issues.

00:26:26:22 - 00:26:29:14
We know that a volunteer
can wake up in the morning and go,

00:26:29:14 - 00:26:31:06
why don't I get paid to do this?

00:26:31:06 - 00:26:33:09
I'm going to have that conversation.

00:26:33:09 - 00:26:35:14
We know volunteers don't show up.

00:26:35:14 - 00:26:40:03
We know volunteers start hitting decline
more than hit accept, right?

00:26:41:00 - 00:26:44:00
We know there's
some really toxic volunteers out there.

00:26:44:04 - 00:26:47:13
We know that volunteers
can completely derail a ministry.

00:26:48:21 - 00:26:52:19
That after the Sunday service
talk at lunch.

00:26:54:09 - 00:26:57:09
And that's
when you have to remind yourself

00:26:57:16 - 00:27:00:16
as a leader.

00:27:00:17 - 00:27:02:15
At the end of the day,
before they were volunteers.

00:27:02:15 - 00:27:03:12
They’re just people.

00:27:03:12 - 00:27:04:08
Yeah.

00:27:04:08 - 00:27:08:00
And you, you may be doing
everything you can in your power.

00:27:08:00 - 00:27:11:23
You may have incredible care structures
in place where every volunteer in

00:27:11:23 - 00:27:16:12
your ministry has a care person assigned
to them that reaches out once a week.

00:27:16:20 - 00:27:21:09
You may have an incredible process
and system, and on-ramping

00:27:21:09 - 00:27:24:19
and follow up and training through MxU.

00:27:24:19 - 00:27:25:02
You like.

00:27:25:02 - 00:27:28:20
You have all this incredible stuff
and you're still missing volunteers.

00:27:29:21 - 00:27:30:20
Don't forget that.

00:27:30:20 - 00:27:33:20
That's when the ministry part comes in,
and you

00:27:33:20 - 00:27:36:19
may be doing everything in your power
and you still have, you know,

00:27:37:03 - 00:27:38:16
turn over or whatever.

00:27:38:16 - 00:27:40:23
I doubt that's actually happening
in real life. I'd like.

00:27:40:23 - 00:27:41:14
It might be.

00:27:41:14 - 00:27:44:14
You know what I'm seeing often?

00:27:47:09 - 00:27:50:10
It's like you're still dealing with people
at the end of the day.

00:27:50:11 - 00:27:51:09
Yeah. You are.

00:27:51:09 - 00:27:55:06
I am seeing and you're going to think
there's going to be specific people

00:27:55:06 - 00:27:58:06
that pop in your head
when this when, when I say this.

00:27:58:14 - 00:28:01:16
There are those leaders
that they are pastors

00:28:01:17 - 00:28:06:22
like they care for people,
but they suck at systems and execution.

00:28:08:08 - 00:28:12:14
And some of you may be listening
to this going, yeah, that's me.

00:28:12:15 - 00:28:16:06
I really love sitting down

00:28:16:15 - 00:28:19:11
talking about people's lives
with them going out to coffee.

00:28:19:11 - 00:28:23:01
I'm with volunteers
all the time, but like,

00:28:24:05 - 00:28:26:23
yeah, I don't know the first thing
to training somebody on

00:28:26:23 - 00:28:28:14
how to be successful at lighting and

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:32:08
I don't know how to give them the clarity
they need to be able to win at that. And.

00:28:32:13 - 00:28:34:19
Like so I do see some of that.

00:28:34:19 - 00:28:37:01
Where like,

00:28:37:01 - 00:28:40:06
we might be lacking on
some of the enablement

00:28:40:06 - 00:28:44:09
side of the task
that actually needs to get done in the

00:28:44:12 - 00:28:47:20
like setting people up for success
in those tasks.

00:28:47:20 - 00:28:51:00
Sometimes we're like,
we're so caring that we're like,

00:28:51:01 - 00:28:55:02
don't worry that you you missed lyrics
for the entire last song.

00:28:55:03 - 00:28:55:22
Yeah.

00:28:55:22 - 00:28:59:05
No, don't worry that you actually
you had to get home

00:28:59:05 - 00:29:03:04
and pick up your kid
like nobody needs to mix the last song.

00:29:03:05 - 00:29:05:05
It's fine. We'll just leave it
as it is. Don't worry about it.

00:29:05:05 - 00:29:08:23
Like love you, care for you like,

00:29:10:17 - 00:29:11:01
“Leader.

00:29:11:01 - 00:29:12:22
I think you're actually,
like, doing the ministry

00:29:12:22 - 00:29:16:14
and that person a huge disservice
when you, like, undermine

00:29:17:11 - 00:29:20:11
the importance of the the role.

00:29:20:11 - 00:29:21:06
Because sometimes.

00:29:21:06 - 00:29:22:12
Yeah what happens?

00:29:22:12 - 00:29:25:09
People are like, why am I even here?

00:29:25:09 - 00:29:29:18
The standard of excellence in this church
is just like, man, the leader is so nice.

00:29:29:19 - 00:29:30:19
They are so nice.

00:29:30:19 - 00:29:34:17
I love them,
no doubt they care for me and my family,

00:29:34:17 - 00:29:37:17
but gosh, working under them,
serving under

00:29:37:17 - 00:29:40:20
them is pretty frustrating at times.

00:29:40:21 - 00:29:43:21
Yeah,
they never start on time. They don't.

00:29:44:05 - 00:29:47:14
But they're so nice and I
want to be around because they're so nice.

00:29:47:21 - 00:29:50:21
But gosh, it is just exhausting sometimes

00:29:50:21 - 00:29:53:23
because this thing is
an organizational train wreck.

00:29:53:23 - 00:29:55:03
You know what I mean?

00:29:55:03 - 00:29:56:21
Oh yeah, 100%. People.

00:29:56:21 - 00:29:59:18
People still like structure. I mean,

00:30:01:00 - 00:30:02:00
you know, they're 9 to 5.

00:30:02:00 - 00:30:03:14
There's structure. There's organization.

00:30:03:14 - 00:30:07:22
And they come here and it's like,
wow, anybody to think about this?

00:30:07:23 - 00:30:10:23
I mean that
yeah, I'm glad you know my kids names. But

00:30:12:02 - 00:30:15:20
we don't have songs and we're supposed
to be rehearsing tonight.

00:30:15:22 - 00:30:17:06
Yeah, it's all good.

00:30:17:06 - 00:30:20:06
I love you
and I love Sarah and Joseph and,

00:30:20:11 - 00:30:24:02
yeah, I’m glad you love my kids,
but I'm here and I'm tired.

00:30:24:03 - 00:30:25:03
Yeah, I love them too.

00:30:25:03 - 00:30:26:23
And I want to be with them right now.

00:30:26:23 - 00:30:29:11
And you're wasting my time.
At the very least.

00:30:29:11 - 00:30:30:15
What songs are we playing?

00:30:30:15 - 00:30:32:02
Yeah. You know? Absolutely.

00:30:32:02 - 00:30:33:20
Yeah. That's a good thought.

00:30:33:20 - 00:30:34:15
Yeah, yeah.

00:30:34:15 - 00:30:36:02
Turn it back on the leader.

00:30:36:02 - 00:30:37:08
It it's still.

00:30:37:08 - 00:30:39:21
Yeah. We did. Yeah. It's
still the leader’s problem.

00:30:39:21 - 00:30:40:18
Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:40:18 - 00:30:43:00
And that's welcome to leadership.

00:30:43:00 - 00:30:44:19
Like any problems in front of you

00:30:44:19 - 00:30:48:05
usually are problems
that you're responsible for solving.

00:30:48:05 - 00:30:49:04
And they may be your fault.

00:30:49:04 - 00:30:52:03
They may not be your fault,
but they're still your problem.

00:30:52:03 - 00:30:53:08
Yeah.

00:30:54:19 - 00:30:57:04
I you always
say this always comes back to leadership.

00:30:57:04 - 00:30:59:00
You actually always say
it comes back to a heart issue,

00:30:59:00 - 00:31:01:21
but also a leadership issue.
I think that's your second. Yeah.

00:31:01:21 - 00:31:04:23
Because I am a strong
I've had people push back on this,

00:31:04:23 - 00:31:08:08
but I am a strong believer that everything
rises and falls on a leader.

00:31:08:08 - 00:31:09:06
I really do believe that.

00:31:09:06 - 00:31:11:15
I'm a strong believer in that.

00:31:11:15 - 00:31:13:02
For those that don't believe that

00:31:13:02 - 00:31:15:00
they're not leaders,
they don't know, they don't care.

00:31:15:00 - 00:31:17:18
That pressure
of what it's like to win or fail.

00:31:17:18 - 00:31:18:20
So they disagree with it.

00:31:18:20 - 00:31:20:21
It's like,
yeah, because you don't know. Yeah.

00:31:20:21 - 00:31:24:11
But if you're if your team success.

00:31:25:03 - 00:31:28:18
If your team is successful,
it's a reflection of your leadership.

00:31:29:03 - 00:31:32:04
If your team is failing – it is 100%
a reflection of your leadership.

00:31:32:05 - 00:31:32:14
Yeah.

00:31:32:14 - 00:31:35:10
And all eyes are on you as the direction.

00:31:35:10 - 00:31:38:00
That's why look at any sports.

00:31:38:00 - 00:31:42:08
Look at anything like,
you know, a CEO of a company.

00:31:42:09 - 00:31:45:09
If the company is failing,
the CEOs getting replaced.

00:31:45:10 - 00:31:49:11
Yeah, it because that is
a direct reflection of their leadership.

00:31:49:12 - 00:31:52:18
Yeah. Yeah yeah it's a good discussion.

00:31:52:18 - 00:31:54:17
I if you couldn't tell
we're passionate about this

00:31:54:17 - 00:31:56:16
I hope that you've
gleaned something from it.

00:31:56:16 - 00:31:58:18
If you're if you made it this far
listening.

00:31:58:18 - 00:31:59:03
Look,

00:31:59:03 - 00:32:03:15
if you are in the position right now
where you're like, guys, trust me, I care.

00:32:03:17 - 00:32:05:18
I'm the I'm the second person
you were talking about,

00:32:05:18 - 00:32:08:18
I care, but I just don't have systems,
process, training.

00:32:09:01 - 00:32:11:02
MxU has got your back.

00:32:11:02 - 00:32:11:16
Check it out.

00:32:11:16 - 00:32:13:00
We'll put a link in the description below.

00:32:13:00 - 00:32:14:18
You can book a demo to see how it works.

00:32:14:18 - 00:32:20:01
But like we were built for the leader
who has a high conviction

00:32:20:02 - 00:32:24:04
for care in their ministry,
but just need need help with the execution

00:32:24:04 - 00:32:27:05
of all the things you know
you're up against scheduling, training,

00:32:27:05 - 00:32:33:00
communication, resourcing, all of all
that goes into worship and tech ministry.

00:32:33:23 - 00:32:35:05
Yeah, I would love to connect

00:32:35:05 - 00:32:38:12
with you and show you how we can
come alongside you in your ministry.

00:32:38:12 - 00:32:42:06
If you're the former person
who you actually care a lot

00:32:42:06 - 00:32:45:08
about the execution and training and so on
and so forth, and you just don't care.

00:32:45:09 - 00:32:46:07
I don’t know how to help you.

00:32:46:07 - 00:32:50:04
But once you get to a place where you care
and maybe you need capacity

00:32:50:05 - 00:32:54:12
to be able to care, we can come alongside
you and give you that capacity back

00:32:54:12 - 00:32:58:14
by helping you train your team,
run your services, and plan weekends.

00:32:58:14 - 00:33:00:14
So thanks so much for joining us.

00:33:00:14 - 00:33:03:17
We will see you
next time on the MxU podcast.