How Old is Too Old?
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Speaker 1
Ten years from now. I can't even imagine what mixing audio is going to feel like, at least from a worship leader standpoint. The last thing I would ever want is me being on stage and someone, a guest, looking, scanning the stage, go, oh, if your motto is I'm not happy till you're not happy, then that's the problem. Yeah.
00;00;16;19 - 00;00;31;11
Speaker 1
If your hands are closed, in my opinion, you are slowly disqualifying yourself. So the ability as you get older to become less coachable is a bigger issue.
00;00;31;13 - 00;00;44;13
Speaker 2
We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about how I think it was titled Maybe Hayden. Correct me, it was titled How Young is Too Young? Oh yeah. Was that what it was? Yeah.
00;00;44;16 - 00;00;48;15
Speaker 1
Not like what state you're in. Welcome, Jeff.
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Speaker 3
Back to the show. Planned to have you.
00;00;52;11 - 00;01;14;22
Speaker 2
How young is too young? I think is what? The episode ultimately we were talking about. We were talking about the tension of being in ministry as a worship pastor and being too young for the task, just not having enough experience. I know you've got a lot of thoughts about that, but we didn't feel we didn't feel good about talking about how old is too old because.
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Speaker 3
So that's why you brought me here?
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Speaker 2
No, we did say, I think we gave you a shout out where I was, like. I was like, we should bring Jeff. Not because he's old, but because he is older than us. Yes. So we want to talk about, I think we should talk about this tension because I, we got into some good stuff, but then we were like, we don't have enough wisdom to be talking about some of this.
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Speaker 2
We don't have enough experience to be talking about this.
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Speaker 3
When you say wisdom.
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Speaker 2
Yeah.
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Speaker 3
You're talking about like age specifically, like we don't have enough age. We talked about this.
00;01;44;16 - 00;02;06;20
Speaker 2
It was seeing this like we haven't seen enough and we haven't. Like I was thinking Chris Tomlin came up a lot on that episode. I'm like, well, Jeff literally would have spent decades with Chris Tomlin. Like, I mean, like it would be really interesting to get your perspective talking. We kind of go around on this idea of like, when, when is it time?
00;02;06;20 - 00;02;23;15
Speaker 2
And I'm going to put this very plainly, like, when is it time for folks to start thinking about putting in the towel and letting the next generation come in, or are we actually is that a pretty silly question? And are we undermining the value of having age and wisdom on the platform and in the tech? This right?
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Speaker 3
Yeah, I came from because we had some stories. The context behind this is that we had stories where we've known individuals who were younger, you know, a 12 to 15 who are, oddly enough, mature enough to sit at a a machine and perform a task. Well, yeah, well enough to be in the to be in that role. And they were, oddly enough, mature enough at that age to receive coaching and get better.
00;02;53;08 - 00;03;14;09
Speaker 3
Yeah. But there was this I my opinion there was this, this wave of of leaders that were a generation ahead of us, that were just for whatever reason, because of your age, you cannot serve. And that's been a thing. And worship ministries still is today. And so that's kind of what the podcast about. And then, you know, so bring clarity or bring context to that.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Speaker 3
So go ahead.
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Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Teach us Jeff.
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Speaker 3
No I don't I don't know that I'm, I mean the first.
00;03;22;11 - 00;03;27;02
Speaker 1
Example that comes to my mind is Corey Edwards. I met Corey when he was 14.
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Speaker 3
And he was hungry, brilliant like a sponge, asked thoughtful questions, was super curious, wasn't like, haughty or proud about his ability, even though he was able to do a lot of things. But he was seeking out good advice and show me what you're doing. How can I learn from this? Wow, that sounds awesome. What? How can I make that apply to what I want to do?
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Speaker 3
You know, that kind of thing? Like, I think there is, there is plenty of space for young people who are approaching it with that kind of attitude versus somebody who's just talented, playing video games and knows how to push buttons and can make stuff work. Like there's there's a difference to me, especially in worship ministry of somebody who can just operate a piece of gear versus somebody who actually wants to be a leader and wants to figure out the why behind the flow of an event or a service, why transitions matter, how things feel like that.
00;04;34;29 - 00;05;05;18
Speaker 3
That, to me, is somebody who has potential for the long term to actually lead the thing. If it's just somebody who can execute a task, that to me is like, okay, dime a dozen in this day and age and probably soon to be replaced by AI anyway, so why not? You know, I think I think those of us who are older need to seek out and encourage and sort of find those diamonds in the rough.
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Speaker 3
And I think that to me, the biggest indicator of that is curiosity. And somebody who's willing to ask good questions and, you know, really seek seeking wisdom, not just seeking knowledge but seeking wisdom. Now talk about Chris Tomlin. You know, back in the day, some of the first tours that Chris Tomlin did were opening for Steven Curtis Chapman opening for.
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Speaker 2
How much younger is Chris than Steven?
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Speaker 3
So Steven Curtis Chapman is mid. He's probably ten years older than Chris.
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Speaker 2
Because I put them in the same age category. Are they not in.
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Speaker 3
The they're not in the same age category because like Steven Curtis Chapman was at his sort of crest in terms of, I would say popularity and you no record sales and that kind of stuff. Probably a decade before Chris was. And I think that has to do with their age difference to some degree. But then when Chris was at his crest, opening for him was Ren Collective and more recently, Pat Barrett, and, you know, people who were up and coming into their own.
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Speaker 3
And so, you know, Pat, for example, is headlining his first kind of big tour this fall. It's like Pat is now kind of out there, this tour with Brandon Lake. Yeah. Who is for the first time headlining arenas. I saw Brandon last week and he sold out a 10,000 seat arena that that was not a thing five, 6 or 7 years ago for Brandon when he was trying to be like, need to breathe or trying to be like, whoever, you know, it's like there's always the next thing that's coming.
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Speaker 3
I think the ones who do it well are the ones who are willing to sit at the feet of those who are older and learn and figure out, like for a worship leader to be, quote, under somebody like Chris Tomlin, who can lead a crowd of people better than any of us have ever seen, it's like, you know, he writes songs so intentionally to give the church a voice to worship.
00;07;36;26 - 00;08;07;19
Speaker 3
Like for somebody who's truly interested in that, to sit under his tutelage is a phenomenal thing. Not because of his great singing, because he's not the best singer, not because of his great playing, because he's not the best guitar player. But in terms of leading people, it's like, man, there's an aspect of his leadership that if you're smart and curious and want to gain anything at all, you would be foolish not to glean whatever you could from a guy like that.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, and I think he did that from Stephen. He did that for Michael Smith. He did that from other people in that era. That was before him. And so he's at the point now where he can pour into like, that's why he's an artist in residence at Highlands College, because he wants to take these 18, 19, 20 year old kids and teach them what it means to lead people to be a songwriter, to be an effective pastor, those kinds of things.
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Speaker 3
It's like, and I think the, you know, somebody like him, he's able to see, okay, not that my time is done, but he's got young kids. He doesn't want to be on a tour bus forever. He's now in his 50s. It's like there is there is a time when you age out and that's okay. I've had to deal with that.
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Speaker 3
It's like, you know, I'm not pursuing touring anymore because it's a young man's game. So how do I how do I kind of pour into the people who are coming behind me in a way that leaves a legacy, in a way that helps, helps me kind of solidify what I, what I do have to bring to the table.
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Speaker 3
Still, I can still mix. I still love mixing, but I'm not going to chase it because I've kind of done that in a way. And I'm and I'm okay. It's a journey, though. I've had to become okay with letting some of that go. Yeah.
00;09;33;28 - 00;10;03;15
Speaker 2
Can we talk about because that's some really interesting points there on the like artistry side, when we talk about the church, I feel maybe you guys would disagree, but I feel like we are deep platforming people too soon based on each like especially on the worship side. It's so interesting that like, the average age of a senior pastor in America is like, I think it's still like 50 something.
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Speaker 2
Like, it's pretty. That's not all that old. But like you, the average age of a worship leader we see is like mid 30s.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Speaker 2
Why is it that people maybe deep platform this is not the right term but like why are we deployed forming people because of their age?
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Speaker 3
That's a great question. I think it's a problem. It could be.
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Speaker 2
Because.
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Speaker 3
Leaders are having a hard time or having a hard time having.
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Speaker 2
Conversations.
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Speaker 3
With that individual, and the easy.
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Speaker 2
Out is of age.
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Speaker 4
It's not because you're not a great leader anymore, or you've lost the ability to sing, or you aren't showing an effort to keep up with your team around you. You are now standing out like the last thing you'd want, at least from a worship leader standpoint. The last thing I would ever want is me being on stage and someone, a guest looking, scanning the stage, go, oh, that that guy doesn't look like he should be up there.
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Speaker 4
Whether it be because of talent, you know, age, the ability to lead. Like why would you want to stick out. So the this this. So breaking down what you said the questions I would have is what we're not hearing young people say is, you know, I've been doing this long enough to know better. You I'm not going to listen to a younger person because I've been doing this longer than you've been around.
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Speaker 4
I can't tell you how many times as leader. I've heard that in the church base from someone older than me. I mean, probably a dozen times or more. Well, I've been doing this.
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Speaker 2
Just spoiler alert. Dylan has old leader hurt, so just.
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Speaker 4
I've been doing this longer than you have. Why would you not listen to me? And it's like, oh, I understand the wisdom and knowledge behind that, but I'm just bringing a different, younger perspective. But my point is, I've never heard someone younger say that. I've only heard the older generation say that. So the ability, as you get older, to become less coachable is a bigger issue than just aging out.
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Speaker 4
But it's really easy for me as a leader to go up to that person and say, hey, you've aged out, you're no longer around because I'm not going to try to coach you because you will not take that very well.
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Speaker 2
Yeah.
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Speaker 3
I just don't, I don't know, I mean, the, the idea that somebody should be pushed to the side or deeply formed because they're just, they don't look cool enough anymore is a big problem for me. Yeah. Like I think there is something to be said for the experience and the wisdom that comes from just those years of doing it every week.
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Speaker 3
Like we talk about the need for technical folks to have a certain number of reps in order to be, you know, to to take, to take the transition from, okay, I'm competent to okay, I own this, I have muscle memory, I have I can anticipate, I can, you know, you can throw anything at me and I'll just I'll react properly because I've just been there, done that.
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Speaker 3
Like somebody behind a microphone has more experience with leading transitional moments and leading a prayer time, you know, truly providing ministry. It's like for them to just be set aside because they don't look a certain way anymore. That's that's yeah, dangerous to me.
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Speaker 4
Yeah. And I'm not at all saying wardrobe. Not talking about wardrobe at all when I'm mean, scan the stage. I'm saying this individual is sticking out because they are not as talented. They are. They're lacking leadership. They're lacking all the things that a younger person would, would like. The easy out is, well, it's because they're old.
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Speaker 3
Oh, I see.
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Speaker 4
It's because they're old. So as an older person, yes, you may carry more experience, maybe more wise. You may know, you may have the knowledge. But if you have stopped because I've been doing this long enough and I know the way to do it, if you've stopped pursuing your craft, if you've stopped trying to get better, the younger generation will surpass you and you will stand out.
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Speaker 4
That's what I was saying.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, I totally agree with that. But I think that's just a call. That's a that's a call to somebody like me to continue to learn and continue to get curious and continue to get better. I mean, I don't think that should ever stop, right? Like, I, I get better every time I stand behind a console. And that's because I'm, I'm trying to avoid the trap of just standing there saying, well, the older I get, the better I was.
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Speaker 3
It's like, no, I don't, I don't want that. I want to go. The older I get, the better I get. Jeff.
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Speaker 2
Would you be so vulnerable to share the last time that there is something because you've been doing what you do for a while. The last time there was a new way of doing something that you were pretty hesitant to even want to know more about in the dating, you're like, that's going to mean I have to get better.
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Speaker 4
I mean, you're like the face of LV one right now. Yeah, kind of proving that theory to be right.
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Speaker 3
Yeah. But I but I do think like there there is some that like for sure over the course of the last five, six, seven years, there has been like an internal resistance on my part to learn more about networking, to learn more about Dante, to learn more about that. And it's like, I'll leave that to the guys who are experts on the computer side.
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Speaker 3
Just tell me how to patch it and I'll I'll do it. I'm not like I have resisted learning how to design a robust system because I just feel like, man, I just that, you know, that's just not what I wanted. Like, let me build a mix. I'll let you I'll let you build the infrastructure, let me and and to it to my detriment.
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Speaker 3
I think.
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Speaker 4
That's wise.
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Speaker 2
But but I think but I ask you that question because I know you're honest enough to yourself. We all are going to experience that.
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Speaker 4
Like there's nothing wrong with that. No, that's pretty wise.
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Speaker 2
But I do think, like what you just expressed is how I'm sure many older worship leaders feel about track implementation. Like I do think that's what worship leaders who we would categorize as aging out might feel with the intimidation around playback, implementation, new gear coming to the the market, song arrangements, they're like, I don't. So I do think that's part of the issue we're seeing in worship ministry is it is like a rapidly moving target.
00;16;33;29 - 00;16;51;15
Speaker 2
It seems like with CCM and that influence on the church, I mean, How Great Is Our God is a much different song than Hard Fought Hallelujah. I mean, that's not a good example. We're not really singing that one in church, but you get what I'm saying? Yeah, just stylistically things are changing, so that could be part of it.
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Speaker 4
But I want to just highlight a significant thing that he brought up in my opinion. I'm not saying older leaders like this.
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Speaker 4
I could see me lacking this as I get older. So I'm just calling it out. So if an older person is listening to this, something I want to highlight that you said that was very suck up to me very well, was very clear is you have the self-awareness to know what are your lanes and what are you good at, what are you good at?
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Speaker 4
And you said, I'm going to let the other guys be. The system sticks the S's, figure out the software, figure out the computers, figure out the integration, figure out how it works. Yeah, up to patch. I'll take you from there. As an older leader, based on my experience is that was in my case, it was I mean, all lanes because I'm I'm the designate leader.
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Speaker 3
Of this.
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Speaker 4
This is how I do things. And so there was no lanes because that person was in all lanes. And it was exactly how I want to do it, when I want to do it and what I want to do. You have all these younger leaders around going, that's okay, you are the leader at the end of day, but allow us to speak into areas that we might be good in that you might.
00;18;05;21 - 00;18;17;26
Speaker 2
Not be. I think what you're saying, though, is honestly just a symptom of poor leadership, regardless of age, because like good leadership is bringing in people to strengthen the areas of where you are weak.
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Speaker 4
I agree with that. But we see that in older age.
00;18;23;18 - 00;18;47;26
Speaker 3
Well, I think I think part of it is like 40 years ago, there was an epidemic of like the church sound guy who was stiff arm building stanchions around their skill. I'm the guy who knows how to do this. Nobody else knows how all these buttons work. Nobody else knows what this does. I have figured this out. This is my area, my sandbox.
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Speaker 3
You're not allowed to play. Yeah.
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Speaker 2
Today, by the way, I think.
00;18;51;15 - 00;19;21;03
Speaker 3
But. But I think it was worse. It was worse a generation ago in a lot of ways. And some of those some of those guys got leapfrogged by technology and got bypassed because they didn't they they thought this stuff was going to be here to stay, and it wasn't. And they were unwilling to adapt and adopt and, you know, be open handed and bring other people in.
00;19;21;06 - 00;19;49;14
Speaker 3
But, you know, the people who from that era who were more open handed, who were generous with their knowledge, who said, hey, kind of like, you know, hopefully the way I've tried to be is like, I didn't invent any of this. Anything I know is rented from somebody else. So I want to be able to go to somebody like Corey when he was a teenager and go, man, I'll show you exactly what I'm doing, because none of this is a secret.
00;19;49;21 - 00;20;15;00
Speaker 3
Physics is not only a good idea, it's the law. And so if we apply these principles, we can we can build an effective mix in a lot of different ways. But this is the core principle I'm thinking about or whatever, whatever the case may be. And then there are the other side of it is there is technology that's ever changing, that's engaging, like LV one that I've embraced that I love.
00;20;15;00 - 00;20;42;04
Speaker 3
Like I think the LV one platform to me is the most impactful, best sounding, most flexible, most expandable thing that I've seen in a long time. And so yeah, I love talking about it. I love using it. I want other people to engage with it and just waves as an example. As they continue to innovate with tools like AI based plugins.
00;20;42;05 - 00;20;58;11
Speaker 3
Yeah, I ten years from now, I, I can't even imagine what mixing audio is going to feel like or be like as an engineer, but it's going to be great. And if we're not ready for that, if we're not embracing it, if we're not leaning into it, then we're going to miss it.
00;20;58;18 - 00;21;20;14
Speaker 2
If you want Jeff's 50% off affiliate code, you'll put it in the description below in our weights. By the way. No, I think you're totally right though. And I, I think that it is a it's interesting hearing you talk about kind of that old guard. Maybe those are the ones in the comments on YouTube that are like, get this digital crap out of here.
00;21;20;16 - 00;21;28;25
Speaker 2
They're like, there's so we get so many like, yeah, keyboard warriors, especially when we do like technical training and stuff back in my.
00;21;28;25 - 00;21;39;05
Speaker 4
Day and we just did a show where an older A1 showed up and brought in his analog console, and it took, you know, 12 hours to load that thing in and get it plugged in and set up. And yeah.
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Speaker 2
I'm sure the preset.
00;21;40;03 - 00;21;50;06
Speaker 4
It all the, the, the, the stereotype was real in this moment. And he was just an angry old dog man. He was angry. So if you still mix on analogs, your problem.
00;21;50;10 - 00;21;51;04
Speaker 3
Is there's nothing wrong.
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Speaker 5
You're probably angry.
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Speaker 3
No, there's nothing wrong with analog. Like it's. It sounds great there. There's a place for it. But if your motto is I'm not happy till you're not happy, then that's the problem. Yeah. It's like it's it's an attitude. It's it's a mindset of your character. It's leadership. It all comes down to leadership. And you know, young people need to understand that leadership is not just about positional authority.
00;22;20;22 - 00;22;47;23
Speaker 3
Leadership is about influence. And so for a young person, like the best way to gain influence, the best way to leverage influence is through what the best leader ever did. What Jesus did is he leveraged his influence through humility. And if you can be, if you can be humble, humbly curious, ask good questions, be attentive, work hard. Like head down all those things.
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Speaker 3
Like I would take somebody on a crew who doesn't know everything, who's a hard worker and is humble. Then somebody who knows a lot, who's a jerk any day. We all would, of course, and we all know that. But, you know, to the young person who has that knowledge, you know, to just come in and try to kind of worm their way in based on that knowledge, it's like, man, just be careful that your attitude is one of, you know, more of a curious, humble, servant based deal, because that'll get you a lot further.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Speaker 2
I think it goes for the older folks to as well. I think that's what I hear you saying.
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Speaker 4
Yep. I was framing.
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Speaker 3
That for sure.
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Speaker 2
Yeah.
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Speaker 3
Literally screaming yeah.
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Speaker 5
You hear me? Probably not.
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Speaker 2
Yeah. It's a personal, you know, personal thing that I've just been thinking about a lot. Just that. Yeah. I'd like to see older folks stick around longer. Yeah. It's just too often do I see somebody turn 40 who's been a worship leader for 15 years now? They're a real estate agent. Yeah, because they're just like, oh, I'm old.
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Speaker 3
Is that them or is that their leadership, though?
00;24;03;01 - 00;24;12;00
Speaker 4
Is that is that a 40 year old going, I'm just, I don't know, aged out or I'm just so done with.
00;24;12;02 - 00;24;13;20
Speaker 4
And I just want to move on to other things.
00;24;13;20 - 00;24;41;25
Speaker 3
So so this is a little bit of a different angle. But I was a part of a church for years that had this kind of generational crisis where some of the original worship leaders that started the church were shoved to the side, moved to the B room, moved to a different campus because they weren't the bright, shiny new toy.
00;24;41;28 - 00;25;03;15
Speaker 3
You know, some new kid came in who had an incredible voice, who had been on the voice, who had done certain things or whatever, and they got the platform five, six, seven years later, the church realized, you know what? There's a lot to be said for what those older guys brought to the table.
00;25;03;16 - 00;25;10;24
Speaker 4
Took them that long to figure that out. Well, I'm seven years. It's almost a decade.
00;25;10;27 - 00;25;12;25
Speaker 3
I'm just saying it goes like that.
00;25;12;27 - 00;25;14;12
Speaker 4
I mean, it's.
00;25;14;15 - 00;25;40;15
Speaker 3
But but now they're because what what they realized is that not only can they still sing, but in terms of songwriting and the depth of a lyric and the things that you just don't learn overnight, especially in this day and age, because every single worship song is exactly the same. It's like, let's get somebody who actually knows how to write a song.
00;25;40;20 - 00;26;09;04
Speaker 3
Oh, wait a minute. There's poetry there, there's harmony there. There's meaning there that we we're not going to just copy paste what we hear in every other worship song. We're going to actually innovate a little bit because of this person's experience as a songwriter. It's like, that's the kind of lessons that I hope the church can learn, because my age cohort and older still has a lot to offer.
00;26;09;06 - 00;26;09;27
Speaker 4
Yeah, I agree.
00;26;09;28 - 00;26;31;02
Speaker 2
If you go on just any average church website, which I go to a lot of church websites, but people sign up for you want to learn more about their church. You scroll, scroll through their, you know, meet the team page or whatever. Usually the youngest folks on that page are going to be in technical ministry, youth ministry, ministry.
00;26;31;05 - 00;26;37;25
Speaker 2
But even like youth ministry, it's not always because probably not good to have like a.
00;26;37;28 - 00;26;39;28
Speaker 3
A 20 year old leading 18 year old.
00;26;40;00 - 00;27;07;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. So but almost like notoriously I and this is just subjective based on what I see that that they're more often than not the youngest leaders in the church in the worship and tech ministry. I also find it please tell me if you guys have seen this different, but I find that the worship tech ministry tends to be the most siloed ministry in the church of dysfunction, arrogance, and.
00;27;07;21 - 00;27;11;01
Speaker 2
Maybe lacking wisdom. Is that too harsh to say?
00;27;11;07 - 00;27;15;00
Speaker 4
I wouldn't think so.
00;27;15;03 - 00;27;17;11
Speaker 4
I think again, though, it comes down to.
00;27;17;17 - 00;27;27;27
Speaker 2
Sorry, I just I just want to make the point that part of that, I think, is because we don't have age and wisdom in the worship and technical ministries. So I think that's the reason I'm saying that. It's like I.
00;27;27;29 - 00;27;49;29
Speaker 3
Do think there's less accountability as well. Like there's because I think sometimes depending on the church, sometimes you have these people who understand these particular skills and their executive leaders don't have that same knowledge. So they're just like, you guys know how the stuff works, you know how to do this. So you just go and do your thing.
00;27;50;02 - 00;28;08;12
Speaker 3
And then over time there becomes a little bit less check ins, a little less. Yep. Larger team meetings, a little less accountability. And then they're just allowed to silo themselves. They're allowed to fester. They're allowed to develop a culture that is less healthy.
00;28;08;15 - 00;28;29;12
Speaker 2
Yeah. The the the ministries I see struggling the most are the ones where, yeah, they're oversight knows nothing about worship in in tech production. They don't know. And they're just like, well, we're screwed if we don't have that next weekend. So we'll let you do whatever you need to do. And there's even kind of a rise willing to get into the rise of like entitlement in our community.
00;28;29;12 - 00;28;55;23
Speaker 2
But people are like, I should be able to do whatever I want to do. That's how you're going to keep me because I'm skilled and talented, right? It's like, that wouldn't be a thing if there was a older, wise person leading that ministry who had their prefrontal cortex and some integrity, wisdom, humility to be able to hold that ministry accountable.
00;28;55;25 - 00;28;59;04
Speaker 3
Yeah, and some experience to see what happens when it's done wrong.
00;28;59;04 - 00;29;12;14
Speaker 2
It's always the older executive pastor who knows nothing about worship and tech ministry that is dealt with having to wrangle US goods, it seems.
00;29;12;17 - 00;29;13;23
Speaker 2
Go ahead, Dylan.
00;29;13;25 - 00;29;17;07
Speaker 4
I think.
00;29;17;09 - 00;29;20;10
Speaker 2
This is his face to face when he disagrees.
00;29;20;13 - 00;29;41;06
Speaker 4
No, it's agree with that. I don't disagree with that. I think the pastor knows what they see in here on Sunday. They judge the team's health based on what they are seeing and hearing on Sunday, which we know that's not accurate. That shouldn't be done. So in their eyes, that team is doing well. Yeah. The the the the the the the data is there.
00;29;41;07 - 00;29;43;26
Speaker 4
People are coming to weekends and it feels good.
00;29;43;28 - 00;29;44;17
Speaker 3
If it ain't broke.
00;29;44;17 - 00;29;56;25
Speaker 4
Don't fix groups. Ministry numbers are not where they need to be. So I got to put more gas on that student ministry. Why are students not coming on Wednesdays? I put more gas on that. Why is giving not where it needs to be? I need to put gas on that. Why are salvations and baptism is not where they need to be?
00;29;56;25 - 00;30;16;19
Speaker 4
Well, because our first impressions teams are dropping the ball with making sure they collect communications cards and follow up. That's where pastors typically land their spot. Worship and production naturally segregates because we evaluate that that process and those teams based on what we hear and see on Sundays, I think that speaks into a little bit, at least in my opinion, why there's that natural segregation.
00;30;16;19 - 00;30;38;06
Speaker 4
I don't know if just adding an older person is going to fix that. That's where I was kind of like, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I don't agree with you. I'm out in the middle. I'm like, yes. Adding someone that is a little bit wiser has a little bit more maturity. Yes, could potentially fix that. But they're still going to be naturally segregated because they're already they're winning and their leaders out of something likely.
00;30;38;08 - 00;30;39;06
Speaker 4
That's my thought on that.
00;30;39;07 - 00;30;48;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and adding what if we didn't have to add old people? But what if we kept the people who became old. Yeah. Like, yeah, it.
00;30;48;26 - 00;31;14;10
Speaker 4
I think there's more to it than that because I don't think like with Jeff, I don't think people of age or leaving just because of their age. I think they've my opinion does not reflect MSU stands on this. My opinion is the older you get, the more fed up you get with what you've been dealing with for seconds at a time in ministry.
00;31;14;13 - 00;31;30;26
Speaker 4
And then they they have that one dinner with that one real estate agent who says, hey, I work 15 hours a week and make $200,000 a year, or, hey, I started a business a year ago, and yes, it was stressful the first year or two years ago, the first year. But today I have more freedom. Ever had make, more money I've ever had.
00;31;30;28 - 00;31;37;21
Speaker 4
And the older and wiser you get, you go. I'm done with ministry.
00;31;37;24 - 00;31;52;19
Speaker 4
And that's what I think. There's more of that than just people leaving because they're old. Yeah, I think people are realizing, hey, I've been doing this this way for so many years. I'm just tired. I don't have the leadership I should get. I'm not in the community I should be in. I've lost sight of real ministry and what it should be about.
00;31;52;20 - 00;31;53;26
Speaker 4
I think you're moving on.
00;31;53;26 - 00;32;14;14
Speaker 2
And you tend to do this a lot. And. And I like that you do it sometimes. It's frustrating to me because this always comes back to it. Highest level leadership issue. It's an issue with senior leadership and the culture within this church, which some of that we just can't control, right? Like we don't have some senior leaders listening to this podcast, but most, most of the listeners are worship and tech leaders.
00;32;14;14 - 00;32;21;02
Speaker 2
And so. People hear that, they hear you say that and they're like, I totally get it. So I should be done.
00;32;21;04 - 00;32;24;18
Speaker 4
Like, you should have conversations. Yeah. You should.
00;32;24;26 - 00;32;27;03
Speaker 3
I want to know how I can make 200 grand working 15 hours.
00;32;27;03 - 00;32;51;05
Speaker 2
A week. I know that sounds awesome. Thank you. Well, apparently that's actually becoming like the new normal for worship and tech ministry people. You shouldn't take a job at a church unless that's the offer. But all that to say, hey, I think all that to say, I do, you know, we've been talking a lot about we haven't necessarily answered the question, how old is too old to be serving?
00;32;51;06 - 00;32;52;12
Speaker 2
I don't think there is an.
00;32;52;12 - 00;32;53;15
Speaker 4
Age I don't either.
00;32;53;16 - 00;32;57;14
Speaker 2
I really don't know. There's some of you out there that might think there is, but.
00;32;57;16 - 00;33;22;04
Speaker 4
Young or old, if you have a closed fist. I mean, I learned this from Joe Wilhite when I was serving his leadership. If you young or old, if you have a closed fisted receiving of an idea of ministry like your hands are not open to anything, whether you're 14, 15, 18, 19, in their 50s, if your hands are closed, in my opinion, you are slowly disqualifying yourself to be in any position that you may be in in any industry.
00;33;22;05 - 00;33;24;27
Speaker 3
And sometimes not slowly, sometimes quickly disqualified.
00;33;24;28 - 00;33;38;11
Speaker 4
I think. I think as long as you have that open handed. Hey, I'm here to receive. I'm here to learn. It doesn't matter how long I've been doing ministry, it doesn't. No matter how long I've been running camera, doesn't matter how long. When that new guy comes in and that new girl comes in, they will have something to offer you.
00;33;38;13 - 00;33;47;20
Speaker 4
It may be small and maybe large, but just have they open hand and go, hey, speak to me. They teach me something new. I think that's what keeps you on the team. Yeah, I don't think has any of the number. Yeah.
00;33;47;22 - 00;33;48;14
Speaker 3
That's great.
00;33;48;16 - 00;34;07;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's really good. Lots more there to unpack, we'll say, for another day if you made it this far. Thank you for for joining us and sticking with us here. Hopefully it's been encouraging helpful to you. If you don't know about MSU, we're a platform for worship and tech team specifically built to help you develop your volunteers, plan your services, execute weekends.
00;34;07;22 - 00;34;26;15
Speaker 2
Got a ton of tools in there to help you train your team. Schedule your team. Execute Sunday with a dashboard visualization of all the tools you're currently using. It's pretty neat. We're we're really passionate about it. If you want to check out, you learn more about it. You can go to the link in the description below. Thanks again for joining us on the podcast.
00;34;26;15 - 00;34;27;18
Speaker 2
We'll see you next time.
