The MxU Podcast

00:00:00:08 - 00:00:16:03
Unknown
We automatically just begin to assume the worst. Well, you hate me. I don't like you now. We're not a good fit. Someone listen to your story there on the verge right now of quitting. And they're trying to slay their dragon every Sunday, and they're miserable. A buddy of mine sent me a poem the other day, and the last line is just practice resurrection.

00:00:16:03 - 00:00:32:07
Unknown
And I think about that as like, if we we quit before we actually see the resurrection. We think suffering is something happening to us and not something happening in us. I don't think I would be that person that could even see a possibility had I not experienced what I experienced.

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00:00:36:22 - 00:00:52:22
Unknown
Hey, for those of you listening, we are at Fellowship Church here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We're with Spencer Garland. Spencer, what's your what's your role here? Worship pastor. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm curious. Like, how long have you been here? And did you did you start as worship pastor when you came to fellowship? No. Okay. So I've been here since June of 2020.

00:00:52:23 - 00:01:13:18
Unknown
Okay. Started as student worship pastor. Okay. And then how was that starting in the Covid year? Oh, it's a new employee. Why was that? Another church before that? And my first interview at fellowship was the day that the NBA shut down in March of 2020. Then fellowship kind of kept pursuing after that via zoom, of course, and we felt like it was right.

00:01:13:19 - 00:01:40:10
Unknown
So June 1st of 2020 started here. We were not having student services, but I was a student worship pastor. Interesting. Yeah, there were almost no services happening. I mean, there was yeah, it was in the middle of all that. And so we didn't actually start services again until August, I think, for, for middle school. And then our high school services started outside in August.

00:01:40:12 - 00:01:56:22
Unknown
So I would get here at like ten in the morning, bring 2 or 3 shirts with me. And somewhere around noon I would start loading gear out to the parking lot. Said it all up by myself. The band showed up about five and we would rehearse, and then we would all have to change because it was, you know, August.

00:01:56:23 - 00:02:19:08
Unknown
And how old were you at that time? 30. 30. Okay. Did you ever feel at that time, like, what am I doing? I'm 30 years old doing like, high school worship ministry. Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of the conversation had really good supervisors at the time. I had to that middle school and high school pastor and just I had a great relationship with them.

00:02:19:10 - 00:02:47:21
Unknown
So they would check in. We would do like monthly check ins. And somewhere around a year end of that, I started to feel I would tell them, I like I feel like Big Bird standing on this stage next to high school kids. Yeah. And yeah, it was it was a challenge. Yeah. I was talking to the reason I asked, because the other day I was talking to somebody who is in an associate worship role at their church, and they got brought in to do development for students and their leading high school ministry slash middle school.

00:02:47:21 - 00:03:13:17
Unknown
I think they have a blended worship and, you know, young adults and they're like, man, I just feel like I shouldn't be doing this at my age. And they always felt like, yeah, maybe there was some insecurity. And I was like, I could see that. I could see that, like, man, maybe I should be like the guy somewhere and not be in this associate role or leading.

00:03:13:19 - 00:03:36:04
Unknown
Yeah. High school students. Yeah. It's interesting. How did you. Well, how long did you stay in that role and when did you transition? Yeah. So I well, interestingly, I was like the worship pastor at a different church before that. So I kind of knew what I was getting into, coming back into student ministry. And it's a long story, but really felt called into it.

00:03:36:04 - 00:03:57:08
Unknown
So I don't think it was. There's just certainly some pride in feeling like, man, I'm too old for this, whatever. But I also just felt like if I trust, like, I think this is right. Yeah. I remember specifically one of the zoom calls was with the students that were on the worship team, the student worship team, and they asked some unbelievable questions.

00:03:57:08 - 00:04:11:19
Unknown
And I remember up until that point I was like, I don't know if this is for me. Like, I don't think I want to go back. I used to lead worship for students, and then I had kind of transitioned to being the guy somewhere, and I was like, I don't know if I really want to go back to that.

00:04:11:19 - 00:04:35:18
Unknown
And then I met those students and I was like, they need a pastor. Like the questions that they're asking. I really believe I could help them with. And so there was a lot of purpose coming into a lot of clarity for me. And but it was tough. It was like to go from meeting adults and planning everything, like being the guy to like, now I'm in this student role, very specific responsibilities and very different kinds of leadership.

00:04:35:20 - 00:04:56:20
Unknown
So it was hard more or less work. Did you take on more work when you went to student ministry? Was it about the same as you? You know, it was different work, like coming out of it was a small church before. And so for five years it was like for the listeners, when you say small church, what was the attendance 100?

00:04:56:21 - 00:05:15:00
Unknown
Okay. Yeah. And then what's fellowship like 3 or 4000? Yeah, yeah. So at the, at smaller church, which I loved, I mean like it was great, but the work was like, man, we don't have a guitar player this week. I'm going to take this guy out who I think knows how to play guitar. We're going to have lunch and we're going to see if this is a good fit here.

00:05:15:04 - 00:05:37:07
Unknown
It was different in the way that like there was a there were a lot of in that time, there were a lot of kids. There were plenty of people to fill the spots, but it was more of a development work. So, I'm curious, share what you can hear. But why? Why the shift away from students into. Was there an opening?

00:05:37:09 - 00:06:01:20
Unknown
Yeah. It's interesting I it was peaceful transition. It was peaceful. Our guy retired. Okay. And and I'll be honest, like, I was approached by leadership and they were like, hey, we think we want you to to do this. And I had been at a big church before and had been given an opportunity when I was younger, and it went real south.

00:06:02:01 - 00:06:28:20
Unknown
And so something about that time when I was 22 ish, leading something that felt bigger as like that role, I was very hesitant and I, it kind of came down to like, man, I love this place. I don't want them to bring somebody in who I hate. So if I'll do it, yeah, it really was like that, but I was I was terrified.

00:06:28:20 - 00:06:47:17
Unknown
I didn't want to do it. I didn't think it would I don't know, just didn't go well before. I couldn't see how it would go. Well again. Could we dive into that a little bit? Like what didn't go well, like, how old were you? Yeah. Give us some firmer graphics of that church and why it didn't go well.

00:06:47:20 - 00:07:12:10
Unknown
Okay. So as a church I grew up at, it was there since I was a baby. Okay. My parents went there before I was born, so we knew everybody. It was like a 12 or 1300 people, okay. Baptist church. And so when I was 19, they hired me as like an assistant to the worship pastor. And I would do high school, college, plan those worship services and kind of do creative stuff for that.

00:07:12:10 - 00:07:34:22
Unknown
And I would assist or worship pastor for Sunday morning, like adult worship. And then two years into that, it came out that he had had an affair. And it was pretty brutal because he'd been on staff, I think, for 20 years at the church. It was really tight community. It was fairly large church, but everybody was really tight.

00:07:34:23 - 00:07:55:10
Unknown
The staff was very long tenured. There wasn't anybody there for just a couple of years. I mean, even the student pastor had been there for 15 years or something like that. Yeah. So it was really tough for our whole church and also left me without a boss and a way forward. So we ended up hiring someone else as the worship director, and she was great.

00:07:55:10 - 00:08:20:10
Unknown
But I don't think she really wanted to be a worship director. So she asked if she could do it part time. And then they hired me full time at 21 to, like, assist her. Okay. And was it like she was the the wisdom? Yeah, that was the idea. And she. You were the skills. Yeah. I was the the Chris Tomlin guy.

00:08:20:16 - 00:08:40:17
Unknown
That was the guitar. Like somebody has to stand and sing the songs. And yeah, there were a lot of people who did that. But I was definitely like in the most forward leadership role of that. So about a year into that, she decided she did not want to be in that job anymore and had some things going on in her own life.

00:08:40:17 - 00:09:02:09
Unknown
So she just kind of left, like pretty suddenly. Okay. And so we were without anybody for, I think six weeks, just trying to throw it together. Me and like our worship ministry assistant and a couple other people. And at some point I get called into the senior pastor's office. I'm 22. And he said, hey, we're going to give you, we're gonna give you a shot.

00:09:02:10 - 00:09:22:12
Unknown
And I was like, to do what? And he said, we're going to give you, give you six weeks. Let's see what you can do. Like to leave six weeks. Six weeks. Yeah. Was there any like, hey, we're going to like, oh, sorry. Continue. No. Yeah. So what can you do in six weeks? You know, a lot more bad than good.

00:09:22:13 - 00:09:42:04
Unknown
Yeah. Sometimes it takes is a lot of bad for gets good. Yeah, I, I loved the church. I never saw myself, like, in full time ministry. I just really loved my church and enjoyed serving in the way that I was. And they're paying me really well. Yeah. The full benefits thing. I was like, yeah, okay, cool. I'll just do this.

00:09:42:05 - 00:10:00:06
Unknown
So yeah, I thought this was going to be the way. So they, they call me in to, to for six weeks. There's a lot that went into that decision I think I think some of it was to kind of prove that I couldn't do it if I'm being honest. And so I, I came in with a lot of passion, though.

00:10:00:07 - 00:10:21:09
Unknown
I was like, here are some things we're doing wrong. You know? Day one fired the drummer and the keyboard player. Keyboard player was the wife of one of our associate pastors. So that was not a came in hot. We came in hot. Yeah, we came in Brazil. I'll tell you this, just to be totally honest, the day after that, the senior pastor called me to his office.

00:10:21:14 - 00:10:45:01
Unknown
I hope you didn't sleep last night. That was how he opened the conversation. And I was like, why? Here we go. Yeah. I don't think I'd ever wish I'd upon my staff. You know, that wasn't the worst of it, so. But that was how he opened the conversation. So hot start. That was two days in. I tried to do a bunch of things, man.

00:10:45:05 - 00:11:03:04
Unknown
We were in a weird season as a worship ministry. We were like, you know, the worship pastor had had the affair like five years before. And if you're in ministry and hiding a kind of sin like that, there are ways to cope with it. One of them is total disassociation. Yeah, right. And so that's more or less what he did for five years.

00:11:03:04 - 00:11:18:02
Unknown
So we had gotten to this very like his leadership was just gone. It just wasn't there. Yeah. I mean, how do you look yourself in the, in the eye and go in and be honest. So yeah. So we were doing the same songs we were doing. It was a mess kind of, you know, and you, you had to know something's up with this guy.

00:11:18:07 - 00:11:34:11
Unknown
Oh yeah. I think it was. I tried to stay in my lane, like our student building was separate from our adult worship space. And so when I would go in there, I had a joke with one of the guitar players. He and I would say, like Sunday mornings, like a dragon, and we just have to go slay the dragon.

00:11:34:11 - 00:11:49:07
Unknown
That means we had to go and keep the train on the rails for the four songs we were playing and hope it didn't fall apart. And more often than not, at walking off the stage, he would just go didn't slay the dragon today. It was just it was bad. And it had gotten back with paid musicians. Paid musicians.

00:11:49:07 - 00:12:05:11
Unknown
Yeah. And it's that way for like years, like years. So yeah, I had really gotten into that space. So when I came in at 22, I think, you know, I was like, I'm going to fix it. I don't know how to fix it. I was like, first of all, we need a click. We never played with a click before.

00:12:05:11 - 00:12:23:09
Unknown
So did a rehearsal started with a click. And it was revolutionary. At the time. We didn't have any like three years before that. So it was like a lot of change happening here. And I was like, second thing we're going to do is we're not going to sing all these terrible songs that we sing every week. We're going to take the best of those.

00:12:23:10 - 00:12:46:01
Unknown
And only seeing those songs, which in hindsight kind of flagged as me introducing a bunch of new songs, which I didn't. I just picked the newest of the songs. Yeah, at 22, I had invested so much into this thinking this is like an opportunity from the Lord to like, lead this place. I love and reform this worship ministry and get it back to a good spot.

00:12:46:01 - 00:13:03:08
Unknown
And six weeks in, a couple of the deacons came to me and they were like, hey, it's not going to work. Yeah, like, thanks for what you did. But we're going to go different direction and you can remain on staff and kind of just go back to your old role. We're going to hire an interim and hopefully look for a worship pastor.

00:13:03:08 - 00:13:23:13
Unknown
And then the interim they brought in, you can decide whether to keep this or not. Was the worship pastor that we had fired a couple of years before that for having the affair? He came back in as the interim. Whoa. Yeah. So, brother. Okay. Hold on. Okay. So, so but I want to before we. Yeah. Because what we got to bring it all together.

00:13:23:14 - 00:13:44:11
Unknown
Right. So like, are people listening? Production dudes. Chicks worship chicks. Like, everyone has their own dragon to slay. So let's add value here to this story. So how when it comes to your dragon, which was that very challenging six weeks of your life. How did you get through that? What did. Yeah, but but I know, but you did make it day to day for at least six weeks.

00:13:44:11 - 00:13:59:03
Unknown
Yeah. You admitted you came in hot, you came in. And we all have those stories. When I went to a church for the first time as a young leader, the first thing I did was bring the whole video team together and say everything you guys are doing currently, we're no longer doing that well. Had like nine volunteers quit that day but only had like 11 on that team.

00:13:59:04 - 00:14:16:00
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. So I went to church that Sunday morning with no camera ops. Sure. So we've all had that like let's, let's I mean, the Titanic sank because it couldn't move from hitting the iceberg within a few minutes. Right. So we can't we can't shift something that quickly without ruffling feathers, even if we believe it's the right move.

00:14:16:01 - 00:14:31:23
Unknown
Right? Like you were making the right moves. Yeah, without a shadow of a doubt, putting naught inside of a piano is the right thing to do in 2012. Yeah, and that pastor should have known that, right? No. But how did you get through, like, day to day? Like, I mean, was it the spiritual side of things like, God, you have me here for a reason.

00:14:32:00 - 00:14:51:09
Unknown
Did your did your faith increase during that six weeks? Did it decrease how was your relationship, your personal relationships in that six weeks, like add value and how you managed to be a human being and still love the Lord and stay in ministry for at least those six weeks? Oh yeah, and maybe the value here is in this is a warning type of story.

00:14:51:11 - 00:15:09:15
Unknown
Maybe this is learned from which we have a lot of those learn from what I did wrong, which I've spent ten years unpacking or more than that now. No, I will say I felt day to day I felt like these are the right moves. This is how I love my church the best. I make this thing better and there was a lot of encouragement through that.

00:15:09:15 - 00:15:32:04
Unknown
Now I was button heads with the senior pastor for sure. But is he still there? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Each week there was there was certainly a spirit about worship that I felt was was right, you know, and I felt like one day the guitar player I mentioned before about saying walked off the stage and he said, this is the first day I've ever come off the stage and not felt embarrassed.

00:15:32:06 - 00:15:53:17
Unknown
So he said to me, and so you had wins internally? Yeah. Externally, the people that decided what winds were in their organization did not see anything as wins, that they saw fewer wins than losses for sure. Yeah, yeah. But that was externally that was just leadership not really knowing what a win was. And worship. Yeah. You're coming in from experience from friends who were on the road and.

00:15:53:18 - 00:16:09:19
Unknown
Yeah. And musicians and knowing knowing people. You know I personally know you outside of this. So like I knew so listen to your story. I'm like, yeah, but Spencer has all the right resources to make this ministry the better. So your wins were all internal, but your leadership weren't seeing those wins, which is probably a common thing for a lot of our listeners.

00:16:09:20 - 00:16:38:03
Unknown
Yeah, it's interesting because like when I hear your story, when I hear that, I'm like, yeah, like, I don't know, looking back, would you say, yeah, they they probably should have got rid of me based on how I handled that six weeks. Or would you say, man, that place is whack? I mean, it's probably there's probably a little bit of both there, but I'm just curious, like as you reflect on that because you're like, hey, this should be a warning to people.

00:16:38:05 - 00:17:06:00
Unknown
I have a similar story of my own that I can I can kind of relate to you, or it's like, young guy, come in, make all these whippersnapper changes, and then all of a sudden, yeah, people aren't digging it. So I'm curious as you reflect, like, what would have you what would you have done differently maybe. Yeah. Well, and the answer to that honestly ties into where I am now, because I had the same opportunity coming into this position to do the same thing, and I did it totally different.

00:17:06:00 - 00:17:27:15
Unknown
But at the time, what I would say is my heart was not in a good place. Like I was openly defiant of that senior pastor. I will say that. And to his credit, he would push back on ideas and I would ignore that and do them anyway because I thought, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm 22 and I know everything that I'm talking about.

00:17:27:15 - 00:17:47:01
Unknown
So yeah, I would have fired me. Like, to be honest, it was not the right spirit to go about it and at the same time thinking I'm defying him in order to love my church, there was like a little self-deception in there and just being young. And, you know, he he had known me since I was a child.

00:17:47:04 - 00:18:07:02
Unknown
And so what had I ever proven to him, you know, why would he have just trusted me outside of the fact that he told me he was going to trust? But outside of that, like, why would he have just trust me to do that? So I yeah, I was not in a good place spiritually, relationally with him to make the changes that I was making.

00:18:07:02 - 00:18:28:08
Unknown
And a lot of when I talk to guys now who are saying like, hey, on Sunday, man, my, you know, I'm just I'm doing these things and it's burning me out. I'm like, well, have you talked to your leader? Like, is that what they actually expect of you? Or if you're putting this expectation on yourself? So, I mean, a lot of it is valuable in hindsight, but I was not in a good spot with him to be.

00:18:28:09 - 00:18:58:20
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. What was it like finding out that they were going to bring in if it were me and I? And I'm finding out, okay, I'm not the guy here anymore. And they're going to bring back in this guy who had a moral failure, which I totally personally believe there's there's opportunity for redemption and restoration. Like, you know, we can unpack that decision in itself, but like, what was that?

00:18:58:21 - 00:19:17:04
Unknown
How did that impact you in your heart in that process? Yeah. Well, to be honest, my qualms were at all with the failure he and his wife had reconciled. They were doing really well. It was kind of beautiful, honestly, to see him step back in, in humility and say, hey, I'm just going to help bridge the gap here until you guys find somebody.

00:19:17:05 - 00:19:34:07
Unknown
That wasn't really the problem I had. The problem was at that point he starts on real estate, and so that was what he was doing most of the time to make money. If he was disconnected before man, like this time I was like, he was hardly ever there. He's the guy. So stepping back into the role is more like, gosh, man, we had some momentum.

00:19:34:07 - 00:19:38:10
Unknown
We were doing something and now this thing just stalled out again. And.

00:19:38:12 - 00:20:06:23

00:20:06:23 - 00:20:07:04

00:20:07:07 - 00:20:26:03
Unknown
And I held on because at 22, I actually did not think I should have been leading at that level. Yeah, I was actually looking for someone to develop me and I, and I hoped he would coming back in. I was less excited about him doing it, but I thought maybe we'll finally find our way to someone who knows what they're doing.

00:20:26:05 - 00:20:43:14
Unknown
They'll see me with my hand up, going, can someone show me how to do this? And then they'll pour it into me. And it never happened. Yeah. It just it was 8 or 9 months of we're not really going to touch the situation. We're not really looking for anybody. And I got to the point where I was like, I just, I'm done.

00:20:43:14 - 00:21:08:09
Unknown
Like, I don't even want to be here. So you made it 8 or 9 months after the six weeks? Well, yeah. So I quit for good. June of 2014. June 1st, 2014. So what was in between that and fellowship to quitting? Well, yeah. Like from if you quit in June 2014, you said. And fellowship in 2020. Like what was in between that period.

00:21:08:10 - 00:21:27:01
Unknown
Yeah. So we I got married during that time. My wife and I actually, she was walking into a Spanish final at UT and I called her and I said, hey, I'm going to resign today. And she was like, let me go take the Spanish final. We'll talk about it. And I was like, oh, sorry. I meant, I've put the resignation on his desk like, we're done.

00:21:27:02 - 00:21:46:07
Unknown
We're leaving this place. Sorry, there's nothing to talk about. I'm cashing out my for three being all $3,000 I have in it, and we're going to use that to survive. So I left thinking I was leaving ministry for good. Ended up working like 2 or 3 jobs. I had some, like design video production skills. So I was doing that freelance.

00:21:46:07 - 00:22:10:07
Unknown
I was working at like a graphics place. We wrapped cars and made logos and stuff. It was cool, and I worked for a buddy of mine and we made video games. So I kind of did all all of those things, trying to hold it together. And then we left the church because we were just like, we're done here, don't have any, won't have anything to do with it.

00:22:10:09 - 00:22:29:07
Unknown
Got tied up in a church plant somehow because somebody knew I had just I know, I know, hey, we know was really rough for that last six weeks. Come load into a gymnasium. Next 90 days, you're going to be restored. I tell you, this is. We could. You can. What are we thinking? And you're. And you're probably at that point.

00:22:29:08 - 00:22:55:19
Unknown
I mean, I've been in that situation before, and it's like you're just a bit jaded. You're like, bro, you don't care about me. No, you don't want the best for me and mine. And like, you want me to come lead at your church and I. Yeah. So I get that. I mean, I understand that and it's it's a bummer that, like, what I just said, somebody listening probably is like, I know a lot of people have felt that way or that that is a common I think us three have felt that way.

00:22:55:20 - 00:23:16:08
Unknown
Well, yeah. So for us, three have felt that way. Yeah. It's 100 just in the room here. Yeah, yeah. And it's and it's and it's just again, we find that in worship ministry because I think we have a lot of senior leaders who don't necessarily understand worship ministry. They maybe don't necessarily have. It almost feels like to them like, well, we got to have it.

00:23:16:09 - 00:23:31:03
Unknown
We just need somebody up there to sing a few songs and get people tears pumped up so that I could go preach my sermon. Like maybe they're not the most passionate about it, but they're just like, we got to have it, and they want it to be good and they don't want people to complain. So anyways. Yeah, I'm, I'm.

00:23:31:04 - 00:23:50:06
Unknown
Did you guys attend in that season anywhere? Were you kind of like man I'm a little bit done. Yeah. So that's a good question. We ended up kind of floating for a while and just trying to, because I never really been anywhere else like I was. I grew up at that church, worked at church, so we were interested to try other places.

00:23:50:06 - 00:24:12:09
Unknown
And we did that for a while. And then the church, the first church. So when I left, ended up hiring an actual worship pastor that we loved, and we knew him and we were like, okay, well, family still there kind of missed seeing the people. We had long standing relationships with a lot of people there, and we loved him.

00:24:12:09 - 00:24:40:15
Unknown
And so we were like, okay, we'll go back and serve. So we just started attending again, serving at the church. And then in October of 2015, my wife's mom passed away. And, it was like brutal, obviously. But the first phone call I got was the guy who told me he hoped I didn't sleep last night, and he was like, what do you need?

00:24:40:16 - 00:25:04:10
Unknown
Like, we're here. And through that, I was like, man, that's probably more what ministry actually is than singing a play on my guitar. And so I was just like, Lord, if if you want me to go back and do that, then I will. And so it's not really spiritual. After that I started looking on church staffing. Com found a little charismatic church in South Knoxville.

00:25:04:10 - 00:25:31:04
Unknown
They needed to worship pastor. So we went there in December of 2015, November 2015 and did that full time for five until I came to fellowship for five years. Wow. Then yeah, they're great to us. It was a good leave. When I told them we were leaving, they were extremely gracious and kind of had a service for us and prayed for us and sent us on our way, and we still have good relationships with them, so that's great.

00:25:31:05 - 00:25:54:13
Unknown
Yeah, that was a really good one. It's funny how we've all been through transitions. We've heard about transitions. Those that decide how that transition goes is is so impactful to what the next five years, ten years looks like. And those relationships, unfortunately, what we hear and see most is that those that make the decisions on transitions decide to make those transitions not good.

00:25:54:14 - 00:26:08:21
Unknown
Yeah, make them as hard as possible, and those relationships just die. Yeah, but your stories like this, where it doesn't have to and you're like, man, it's cool to see that there are stories that exist where someone leaves a church and they're all still friends. Yeah. And in fact, that's like Ephesians chapter four, like, really burns in my heart.

00:26:08:22 - 00:26:25:13
Unknown
Like the unity of of the body, like the kingdom to me is bigger than the walls here at this church on a Sunday. You know, I think we can go further with each other than we think we can. And I think a lot of that is born in having done it the wrong way, and then also having seen it done better ways.

00:26:25:15 - 00:26:51:19
Unknown
So yeah, it's possible. That's cool. So interesting. Like I just, I, I know so many folks whose stories and at the pastor telling you wish you I he hopes you didn't sleep last night. I could just so often I hear that's the end of the story. They're like. And that's when I decided I'm going to be a real estate agent for the rest of my life.

00:26:52:00 - 00:27:11:05
Unknown
That's when I decided I'm done with the church. Love Jesus, hate the church. We see, especially in worship ministry people, just the closer you get to the center at an early age, the the more dangerous it becomes. Like. And I'm curious. Like.

00:27:11:07 - 00:27:33:08
Unknown
I don't know, it's it's it's I resonate so much with what you shared and it might be because of. So I grew up in a church, my, the church that my wife and I met in middle school worked there. That was my first job. Same thing, didn't really go to college. And I always looked back at that season and go, man, I was way too young to be doing that.

00:27:33:14 - 00:27:57:19
Unknown
We've had an episode. We've done an episode before of like, how young is too young in ministry? I know you got started mystery super young. But yeah, sometimes I look back and wish like, man, I wish there was a more kind of agreed upon. Like, you don't see a lot of 20 something senior pastors, but we see a ton of 20 something worship pastors.

00:27:57:21 - 00:28:27:01
Unknown
And I think a lot of the pain, what you shared and what we all kind of sit here and we can be a little bit flippant about, would be spared if we're a little bit more careful about that. Yeah, it really has produced a worship leader crisis right now. And like nationwide, like, I know I was connected with a lot of worship pastors in different states, in places and there, and they're all kind of saying the same thing, which is like where the young guys like, where are the guys who started when I started?

00:28:27:02 - 00:28:47:00
Unknown
Yeah, it's like, man, they're all real estate agents. Like, they all experienced this and got burned and left. And now the church is scrambling like, I've got 3 or 4 people right now asking me, do you have anybody you can send on a Sunday? And I'm like, and I, I don't like same for production. I mean, we get texts every week looking for production director in this church in Florida.

00:28:47:01 - 00:29:05:00
Unknown
Do you have anybody that can be a production guy in this like, I don't I don't man, like, as many people as we know, it's like I do not have anybody that comes to mind. I'm like, oh yeah, this person's looking for a job. Yeah. I think though, the value there is that I know for me, I'm just speaking to myself personally now.

00:29:05:00 - 00:29:14:07
Unknown
It's when we hear the story of the dragon and the and the hope we didn't sleep last night.

00:29:14:09 - 00:29:44:11
Unknown
I don't know if it's just the society we live in or what. We automatically just begin to assume the worst. Well, you hate me. I don't like you. Now. We're not a good fit. And you are the representation right now, today in front of me that represents leadership type church. I want nothing to do with that. And so I just turn and go the other way and enjoy hearing a story that is more on the redemption side of things, where there's been a lot of see, cause we immediately started, just as you're telling your story, we're like, oh yeah, high five.

00:29:44:12 - 00:30:06:06
Unknown
Yeah, another story clip, you know? And then all of a sudden the redemption side rolls out and we're like, okay, good. Yeah, yeah. Like there's actually a and you're still in ministry, which is huge, you know. So someone listen to your story. I mean, they, they're on the verge right now of quitting because and they're 21 years old and they're trying to slay their dragon every Sunday and they're miserable.

00:30:06:08 - 00:30:11:11
Unknown
And I'm just hoping they're hearing your story going.

00:30:11:13 - 00:30:34:14
Unknown
Oh, how many years later, 15 years later, you're still trucking. You're still doing your thing. You're worse. Pastor, when largest churches in Knoxville and it's like, hey, there's still there's still hope. Yeah. Don't be mad. Yeah, like, hang in there. Pursue your calling. Put Jesus first. Focus on relationships. Don't let one comment ruin everything. You know. How many times have we let a comment ruin our path, you know?

00:30:34:19 - 00:31:01:05
Unknown
Yeah, well, and I think the key thing to hone in on for the listeners, the thing that drew you back in, was the Lord tugging on the area of your heart that was pastoral and going, hey, this is what you're called to. And I think for a lot of young guys, myself included, we just mistake the role.

00:31:01:06 - 00:31:25:01
Unknown
Like we think it's one thing. We think it's to come in and switch out the keyboard with the, the upright with a Nord to come in and, you know, get better symbols on the drum kit and like, fix the front of house mix. And we have all of these items on the agenda to, to make our mark stamp on the ministry on the church and save, save it.

00:31:25:06 - 00:31:50:15
Unknown
And then those things fall short or don't make the impact we think they're going to make. And we have the old wise guy coming and saying, what did you do, you young dumb idiot? And we don't like the way they said it. And so it's so weird. I can I can see both sides of it because I when I hear that story, I think about your pastor and I'm like, bro, that's a stupid thing to say to somebody that's tough.

00:31:50:16 - 00:32:13:12
Unknown
You know, it's a really dumb thing to say to somebody. But at the same time, there's probably some wisdom of like, hey bro, you had six weeks and you decided to like, uproot the team in six weeks and do it like probably not wise. And unfortunately it just doesn't serve you well, you know, and that's, that's what's such a that's a bummer.

00:32:13:14 - 00:32:42:11
Unknown
And it's. Yeah. Like I said, you know, like Dylan said, it is cool to hear that you are now doing what you're doing all these years later. And I don't think that those stories are highlighted enough. What's cool about these episodes with us going to church is it's just cool how this conversation has gone. I'm saying that because we we're not, like, advancing this with these guys and these churches and these girls and churches like Spencer and saying, hey, we just want to hear your story today.

00:32:42:13 - 00:33:02:00
Unknown
So, Spencer, knowing that that and for the listener to know that this wasn't actually a planned thing, what would you say directly to somebody right now? A 22 year old worship leader, a 22 year old audio engineer, 22 year old stage manager or purpose or OP, or a lying designer, production manager, whatever that is, trying to slay their dragon.

00:33:02:00 - 00:33:34:06
Unknown
And it's considering walking away from ministry. What would you say to that person right now because they are listening? Yeah, I would, a buddy of mine sent me a poem the other day. In the last line of the poem has stuck with me. It's on. Repeating my head in the last line is just practice resurrection. And I think about that as like, I had no business having a continuing relationship with a pastor who told me, among other things, that he hoped I didn't sleep last.

00:33:34:06 - 00:34:03:10
Unknown
I mean, there are some worse ones I didn't need, sure, but if Christ was raised from the dead, yet that same spirit lives in us, we have to expect if we follow him, we will suffer and we will be allowed to practice resurrection. Now, does that mean stay in an unhealthy situation that you know is unhealthy and is wounding you because you hope that some magical resurrection story happens?

00:34:03:10 - 00:34:31:10
Unknown
No, it's not what it means, but I do think it means to look for it. I do think it means sometimes if we we quit before we actually see the resurrection, like we we think suffering is something happening to us and not something happening in us. And what it. I wouldn't trade that season as hard as it was, because what it formed in me was a person who now can see into other situations with people.

00:34:31:11 - 00:34:53:14
Unknown
I meet with guys all the time who say the the expectation is here. I can't meet that. So I don't sleep on Saturday. That's ruining my relationship with my wife. It's taking up all my brain space, and I get to look at that and say, hey man, have you had this kind of conversation? Like where, maybe that could set a course for a different way forward?

00:34:53:16 - 00:35:13:12
Unknown
I don't think I would be that person that could even see a possibility had I not experienced what I experienced. So I don't wish it didn't happen. Yeah, but I do think as far as of Jesus, we we get to follow him in all the ways, including the resurrection. That's cool.

00:35:13:14 - 00:35:37:16
Unknown
That's really cool. Thanks for sharing. Seriously, I appreciate you coming on and just being transparent. And it's not easy to do and inviting us into your church. And thank you if you've made it this far for for watching, listening. If you're listening here, check out Fellowship Church. If you want to learn more about MQ The Weekend Ready Playbook, we'll put that in the description as well of this video.

00:35:37:16 - 00:35:56:11
Unknown
And yeah, if you're a church to listen to this and you're like, man, these guys should come. Oh, it's kind of a weird thing to email and be like, come interview me on the podcast. But if you wouldn't be, if you'd be so vulnerable to reach out, like we're looking for more places to go in different states, we're willing to travel.

00:35:56:12 - 00:36:09:16
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, we're going to probably be here in Dallas here pretty soon looking at heading out to maybe Denver and some other areas. So yeah, hit us up. We'd love to come see your church. And yeah, thanks for joining us on the podcast. We'll see you next time.