The MxU Podcast

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think at
times it felt a little bit like handcuffs.

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historically, a legacy Baptist church

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over 100 years old I was 27 years old
when I became the worst pastor here.

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my biggest barrier in succeeding was that

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I wasn't willing to ask for help
I've always got to be on.

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I've always got to have a spiritual
thought ready.

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exhausting yourself emotionally.

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ask more questions than you have answers,

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and you'll gain
the respect of those around you.

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it means I'm going to

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live with things that are not necessarily
my favorite it's not about me.

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At the end of the day, it's
about what I've been stewarded with. Yeah.

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Hey y'all.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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Today we are in first Baptist, Concord
and Knoxville, Tennessee, a hometown.

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Dylan,

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wish I was born.

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Who are we with?

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Pastor David, worship pastor. Yep.

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first Baptist, Concord
church, Knoxville, Tennessee.

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How long you been here?

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I've been here 11 years in October.
Awesome.

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Years, yeah. Awesome.

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Where were we at before that?

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I was at Preston Wood in Dallas. Nice.

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So who hasn't heard of Preston Wood?

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Right. Is there for about two years.
What'd you do there?

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I did student worship
and was also a part of Saturday

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night service when they still had one.

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So, yeah, we we went right from Liberty
University into Prestwood. So.

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And then came here 11 years ago.

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I can't believe it's been that
I mean, I had never heard of Concord.

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Never heard of Knoxville.

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To be honest, it was a town
that I would pass through a lot,

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but was wanting to be involved
in adult worship

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more and wanting to be in a space
where I could learn.

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And so the job that I came in on
was was more of an associate role.

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But the guy that I was able to come work
for was a family friend

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from, like,
he was my dad's associate a long time ago.

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So it was a cool, full circle kind of
thing to be able to come here and serve.

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Hey. Well, I mean,

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this is not in the studio, right?

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So do you want to explain
what in the world we're doing?

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If you haven't been around the podcast
for a while,

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we have taken the podcast into churches.

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So we're obviously we're here in Knoxville
where headquarters is.

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So we're we're starting here,
but we'll be going out to a city

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maybe near you if you're interested
in coming on the podcast,

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if you're in a worship or

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technical leadership role in the church,
we'd love to come to you.

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So it has some in the comments.

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DM us whatever, we'd love to meet you.

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But so today we're here at First Baptist
Concord.

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Okay, David, tell us a little.

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I mean, we're in a Baptist church.

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Yeah.

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Like, I mean, you can kind of see it
on the cameras.

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Beautiful building
that we've been blessed with you.

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But tell us a little bit about the church.

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You don't need to go
into all the history, but, like,

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I want people to understand
what a typical Sunday here looks like.

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But like team makeup,
all that kind of stuff.

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Yeah, So I would say historically,
you know, Concord lives in that

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very like like a legacy Baptist church
kind of spot.

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So over 100 years old

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has been in several different locations
over the course of its history.

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The reason it's called Concord is actually
there's a historical little town

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that's not too far from here, near
the railroad. Railroad.

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And it's it's called Concord.

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And so that was the original location.

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There's actually a little yellow brick
building in that area,

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and that was the original occasion.

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And so they moved to Kingston Pike,
I think, in the 70s.

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And so it's got this rich history.

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It's got,
you know, that history of like a senior

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pastor that was here for 25 years.

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And so serving with a senior pastor
now who,

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you know, is always challenged with that,
you know,

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we want to move the church forward,

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but we you want to respect the legacy
that you've been handed.

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Yeah. So yeah.

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So it's it's in West Knoxville,
which is a more affluent part of town.

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And, you know, the

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the crowd that we've been ministering to,
like when I first got here 11 years ago,

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I would say it was very southern,
just in makeup

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and in culture and,
you know, getting closer to 2020

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and then especially when Covid happened,
the makeup of our town is just different.

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We have people from California.

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All of a sudden
we have people from New York

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and just different, different cultures,
different parts of life.

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And so it's really changed the makeup
of our church, I think, in a positive way.

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And so all of a sudden
we're able to to minister and really,

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really exciting ways, I could spend
more time on the history, but,

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you know, just give you the idea, like,
this is a legacy church.

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You know, we stand on
the shoulders of giants in a lot of ways.

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Everything we do has a history to it.

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There's an old chapel
across the parking lot.

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I mean, tons of history on this campus.

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Yeah.

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I mean, we have every
we have a wide spectrum of, like,

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you know, people who are, you know,
brand new believers

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just stepped into the doors of the church,
you know, not too long ago.

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And then you have a 90 year old
who was baptized

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in the chapel,
you know, 50 plus years ago.

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And so that's a pretty wide gap.

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You know, it
creates its own unique challenges.

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I guess the makeup of our team,
you kind of start there.

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So I'm the worst pastor.

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So I lead obviously our worship team.

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So that's made up of my music director

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and my associate who specifically
in like a development role.

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So his role
is not just in next gen development,

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but really focused on developing worship
leaders and musicians

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from, let's say, sixth
grade up into adulthood.

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And then, you know,
we have an assist in our team as well.

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And then our production staff
is under the worship umbrella.

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And so I have a production director,
and he has got a an assistant as well.

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And so we Up until last week,

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creative was under the umbrella of worship
as well.

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We moved the structure honestly
because the teams were growing too big.

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And so creative coms, design films,

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those are now working alongside of us,
which is working really well.

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Nice. Okay.

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So tell help me understand
everybody understand

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like the roles that we have on a weekend.

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Yeah.

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So positions on the platform,
routine positions

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on the platform
and in the and production as well.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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So we have a lot of people on stage.

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It's kind of goes back to that legacy
point of reference.

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And we've got a big production
team as well.

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So on stage we have choir
the majority of our Sundays.

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How many people in the choir?

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I always say on an average Sunday

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you're going to have anywhere
from 75 to 90 for a big event.

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We might have 115 on stage.

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We have band.

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So, you know,

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we've got keys, two guitars, bass, drums
and then we've got a front line

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of of singers, of worship leaders
that are driving the experience.

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And so that'll be anywhere
from five singers to nine singers on

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any given Sunday.

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And then,
the makeup of our production team,

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I may not be able to be super specific
when it gets to, like, the video room.

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Yeah, yeah.

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But, you know,

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we've got front of house lighting
director, we have an experienced director

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who's able to communicate to stage
and to stagehands and stuff like that.

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We'll have 1 to 2 stagehands
on any given Sunday,

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and then we've got all that lives
in the video booth.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Camera ops, pro presenters. Exactly.

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What would you.

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a hot topic in the church in the last
decade is contractor versus volunteer.

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Yeah. And so I find myself

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asking this question when we read churches
and going to be asking this question

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retro is like there's no right or wrong
answer to this, but what percentage is

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your teams that you just named
between production and worship?

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Volunteer versus staff.

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Yeah, yeah. Or contractor?
We can call contractor staff.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, if you

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consider the volume of people on stage,
it would be a very small portion.

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I mean, generally from Sunday,

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Sunday to Sunday,
the only contracted positions are band.

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Yeah. So band would be drums.

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Pretty much anybody playing
playing an instrument.

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Now, that isn't to say that
we don't have some volunteer musicians.

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Yeah, but the foundation of what we build
is built off contracted musicians.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And even in production, your production
director is a great audio engineer.

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So he makes his most Sundays
and he's on staff. He's on staff.

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So it's a little different.

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So I mean, but we would, you know,
if we were to consider a position

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in production that we would contract out
front of house, would, would be one.

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Okay.

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Thankfully we're blessed
to not have to do that every Sunday.

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But we also have very highly
skilled volunteers

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that can run front of house
when Zach is not here on a Sunday.

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But we're not going to contract,
you know, camera ops

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or most likely we're not going to contract
lighting designers in our space.

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We try to protect those positions.

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I mean, even the experienced director,
the one who's communicating,

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you know, everything from their seat.

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That's a volunteer role
that we're trying to, you know, raise up

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even more people to be able to do that
role. Okay.

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So help me on this.

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I'm like so ignorant to this.

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But like in Baptist churches,
is it pretty typical that like,

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you have

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praise team and band and is it

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kind of like I've noticed, like the band
is because you even drew

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the kind of the delineation of like,
hey, band is contracted.

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They're kind of the foundation.

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But then we've got Praise Team,
which is more volunteer.

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Is that pretty typical in Baptist
church culture?

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I think there are things about what we do
that are unique to Concord.

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But I would say generally a large

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Baptist church
is living in that legacy space.

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So the legacy that they're coming
from historically,

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like if you go to a badass church,
you're going to see a choir.

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Choir is is just a value
that the Baptist denomination holds.

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So they're kind of coming from that
and now asking the questions

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or they've been asking the question 15, 20
plus years,

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how do we continue to press on forward
into what worship is today?

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But honor? Yeah, what's been in the past.

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And so I would say it is common
to have that, you know, band

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foundational like element of like,
you know, we're going to do modern music,

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but we're going to maintain having a choir
because we value that Congregationalism.

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Yeah.

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That congregational singing
is still a value above all things.

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And so I would say in the last ten
or so years,

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what this church has gone through
and what a lot of bad

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researchers have gone through is,
you probably have gone from,

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you know, choir
driven to more choir supported.

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And that's same in
but opposite in the band world.

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Band would have been more supportive.

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It's more forward.

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Yeah.

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In what you're experiencing
as far as the front line goes,

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I would say that might vary
greatly between Baptist churches.

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I don't I don't see a big standard there.

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But praise him is some
some semblance of it you're going to see.

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Yeah. The battle of church. Yeah.

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I like your leadership
because you keep using the word legacy.

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And I think I think often
people are like, that's just traditional.

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Yeah.
We got to move on from the traditions.

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Yeah, but you're saying it's
actually a lot bigger than traditions.

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It's it's
we hang on to the values of those

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who have gone before us and the left,
the legacy they left behind.

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And we're just honored to be
in that legacy.

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Yeah.

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That's a that's a really positive not 7%.

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Yeah. It's a positive.

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Yeah.

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To to what
some of our modern churches would be like.

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Yeah. They still have a choir. Right.

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That's insane. Right.

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You know I think a part of that language

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of maybe learned to adopt is like,
I'm a PCF.

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Yeah.

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You know, I grew up in church.

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I grew up loving

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churches.

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You know, there's a lot about the church
that is love.

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And so I think where we have to be
careful,

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is kind of creating this,

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you know, clear black, black and white

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distinction between traditional and modern
as good or bad.

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Because the reality is traditionalism
is only bad when it's empty,

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you know, and you can have empty

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modernism, you know, and so the things

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that are good about a legacy, why wouldn't
we want to keep doing those things?

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You know?

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And the reality is when you use that,

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that word legacy,
like we're all building a legacy, it's

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just whether it's good or bad, you know,
what are we being remembered for?

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And so, you know, kind of kind

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of coming back down to those like, values,
what are we building off of?

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Like Concord is just going
to value again, I think that

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is a word that

00:13:25:23 - 00:13:29:01
multi-generational ism is also a word
I think that we could use.

00:13:29:10 - 00:13:34:16
And this specific example being choir,
like we're going to have a choir for me.

00:13:34:17 - 00:13:38:00
Like I think that
no matter how modern we go,

00:13:38:00 - 00:13:42:11
I want to make sure that there's
a point of entry into what we do.

00:13:42:12 - 00:13:43:21
And choir provides that.

00:13:43:21 - 00:13:47:14
Like, not everybody can hold a mock phone,
not a body can lead a solo

00:13:47:14 - 00:13:50:17
at the level that we would want to do it
on Sunday morning.

00:13:50:21 - 00:13:52:19
Almost anyone can be acquired.

00:13:52:19 - 00:13:57:12
I almost see it as like, oh no, our just
our church is going to kind of

00:13:57:13 - 00:14:03:06
just we let CCM in like
just the contemporary music today

00:14:03:07 - 00:14:05:09
kind of shape
how we worship in the church.

00:14:05:09 - 00:14:06:10
Yeah. Right.

00:14:06:10 - 00:14:09:09
Like once the last charted song

00:14:09:09 - 00:14:14:03
that had a choir part in it,
there might be 1 or 2, I don't know.

00:14:14:03 - 00:14:17:10
I can't think of one right now,
but I think that tends to

00:14:18:18 - 00:14:19:11
influence.

00:14:19:11 - 00:14:21:02
Right,
like what we're doing in the church.

00:14:21:02 - 00:14:22:09
So it's like, oh, we have a choir.

00:14:22:09 - 00:14:26:07
And I'm like, and it's so weird because
some churches, when I talk to them,

00:14:26:09 - 00:14:30:07
there is this hesitancy of like,
yeah, we still we still have a choir.

00:14:30:12 - 00:14:33:02
And I'm like,
I think that's awesome. Yeah.

00:14:33:02 - 00:14:37:20
And I actually I think that having a choir
and now it's funny, you see it

00:14:37:21 - 00:14:40:08
like even like an elevation,
like music videos and stuff.

00:14:40:08 - 00:14:42:15
They're like, this is how we're going
to pump people up and to gauge people.

00:14:42:15 - 00:14:48:02
And now it's back,
you know, like, but I think it's, I,

00:14:50:00 - 00:14:51:08
I don't know, Dylan.

00:14:51:08 - 00:14:54:08
What are your thoughts on that? Like what?

00:14:54:09 - 00:14:56:19
Why don't we have more choir?

00:14:56:19 - 00:14:59:18
I think people, when they hear choir,
they hear work.

00:14:59:18 - 00:15:01:01
Yeah, it's a lot of work.

00:15:01:01 - 00:15:03:01
Yeah, I think they hear. Right?
Yeah, yeah.

00:15:03:01 - 00:15:04:02
I mean, it's a lot of work.

00:15:04:02 - 00:15:05:22
I mean, even a church,
I served that in the past.

00:15:05:22 - 00:15:07:09
We had a choir.

00:15:07:09 - 00:15:10:01
And I vividly remember

00:15:10:01 - 00:15:14:06
sitting in meetings as it phased out of,
well, who's going to do it?

00:15:14:07 - 00:15:16:11
Like, which one of us in the room
is going to lead

00:15:16:11 - 00:15:20:17
that group of people and recruit
and retain and develop

00:15:20:18 - 00:15:23:10
and all the buzzwords
and keep them from it's

00:15:23:10 - 00:15:25:13
hard to make them sound good,
keep them from eating all the food

00:15:25:13 - 00:15:27:10
and the green room for the band. Yeah.

00:15:27:10 - 00:15:30:19
And like like all the negatives.
Yeah, yeah.

00:15:30:20 - 00:15:31:23
You know, I

00:15:31:23 - 00:15:34:09
so I think, I think
at least in the churches I've served at

00:15:34:09 - 00:15:36:14
and the churches that I've been a part of
or worked with.

00:15:36:14 - 00:15:36:23
Yeah.

00:15:36:23 - 00:15:39:02
It's always acquires
always been a super negative thing

00:15:39:02 - 00:15:40:11
because it's just a lot of work.

00:15:40:11 - 00:15:40:23
Yeah.

00:15:40:23 - 00:15:44:00
And people wonder
whether the juice is worth the squeeze.

00:15:44:01 - 00:15:46:23
Yeah. Right.
And they just are probably missing out on,

00:15:47:22 - 00:15:49:12
like you mentioned, that legacy part of

00:15:49:12 - 00:15:52:18
like what value can they add
if a choir is done right.

00:15:52:18 - 00:15:55:04
It's it's a pretty good experience
if it's done right.

00:15:55:04 - 00:15:55:12
Absolutely.

00:15:55:12 - 00:15:56:06
And I think also

00:15:56:06 - 00:16:00:03
we saw a lot of churches doing it wrong
because no one wanted to do it.

00:16:00:03 - 00:16:02:12
And it was like, we're just doing it
because our pastor is making us do it,

00:16:02:12 - 00:16:05:12
or doing it because our worship pastors
making us do it, or

00:16:06:05 - 00:16:07:04
we need a door.

00:16:07:04 - 00:16:09:09
We need a wide open door to the ministry.

00:16:09:09 - 00:16:13:01
So it's you're either going to go,
you know, be a stagehand

00:16:13:04 - 00:16:14:15
or you're going to go in the choir.

00:16:14:15 - 00:16:16:18
Which ones are you going to do?

00:16:16:18 - 00:16:20:04
And that was always just in my world.

00:16:20:04 - 00:16:23:00
From my experience,
that was never a positive approach. Yeah.

00:16:23:00 - 00:16:25:06
And so that's how the foundation is built.

00:16:25:06 - 00:16:27:20
And then we just phase it out
because we don't care anyways. Yeah.

00:16:27:20 - 00:16:30:00
And that kind of goes back to like if,

00:16:30:00 - 00:16:33:02
if the traditionalism
is not working for you, like,

00:16:33:02 - 00:16:38:04
not everybody should have a choir,
you know, even with the best intentions.

00:16:38:04 - 00:16:41:12
Like, I couldn't imagine
starting a choir from scratch.

00:16:41:14 - 00:16:43:07
I mean, it would be,
it would be a ton of work,

00:16:43:07 - 00:16:45:00
especially at a church
that doesn't have that.

00:16:45:00 - 00:16:48:01
Just an eight core value of like, yeah,
we want a choir.

00:16:48:12 - 00:16:51:06
But that's the blessing
of being at a place

00:16:51:06 - 00:16:54:12
that has that legacy
is it's just ingrained in who we are.

00:16:54:12 - 00:16:58:04
And, you know, you talk about choir done.

00:16:58:18 - 00:17:00:13
I don't even want to use the word
maybe poorly.

00:17:00:13 - 00:17:03:07
Like, yeah,
we can talk about quality and everything.

00:17:03:07 - 00:17:04:23
And that's a discussion in and of itself.

00:17:04:23 - 00:17:08:10
But when you talk about its effectiveness,
effectiveness and leading worship,

00:17:08:18 - 00:17:13:11
you know, we've seen the show choir
that it exists

00:17:13:11 - 00:17:16:21
on Sunday morning that that I think
is a turn off to our generation.

00:17:16:22 - 00:17:20:16
I don't know what the youngest generation
currently thinks about that.

00:17:20:17 - 00:17:23:09
I'm not even sure they would have
a reference point for that.

00:17:23:09 - 00:17:27:23
But when you see a choir, I mean,
and I genuinely believe this about hours

00:17:27:23 - 00:17:31:21
when you see one
genuinely engage in our people in desire

00:17:31:22 - 00:17:35:02
not to perform, but to lead our people
from where they are.

00:17:35:11 - 00:17:35:17
Yeah.

00:17:35:17 - 00:17:37:23
Well,
all of a sudden I've got people on stage

00:17:37:23 - 00:17:41:07
that can connect with our congregation
that I can't connect with,

00:17:41:11 - 00:17:46:04
and I can connect with a lot of people,
but I can't connect to the 80 year

00:17:46:05 - 00:17:49:04
old woman in the way that the 80 year
old woman in my choir can,

00:17:49:04 - 00:17:52:13
who's worshiping with a genuine heart
and a genuine expression.

00:17:52:13 - 00:17:55:13
When they look up on stage and they see

00:17:55:21 - 00:17:58:23
they just looks like those people
believe what they're singing, you know,

00:17:59:00 - 00:18:00:15
that makes all the difference in the world

00:18:00:15 - 00:18:03:16
and what we're able to do
in leading a large room.

00:18:04:06 - 00:18:07:11
Really,
in a way, outside of them being present

00:18:07:11 - 00:18:10:18
and leading worship there, it's gain
vocals.

00:18:10:19 - 00:18:14:20
Yeah, it's like they're adding this
massive vocal presence or they should be.

00:18:14:21 - 00:18:15:11
Yeah.

00:18:15:11 - 00:18:18:07
And they're filling the room with voices.

00:18:18:07 - 00:18:22:18
And then, you know, visually
we can see them leading worships.

00:18:22:19 - 00:18:22:23
Right.

00:18:22:23 - 00:18:24:12
So it helps the atmosphere. Yeah.

00:18:24:12 - 00:18:27:12
So it's like it's choir can be.

00:18:27:14 - 00:18:27:20
Yeah.

00:18:27:20 - 00:18:31:19
The the Brooklyn Tabernacle you know
it's like you know 1000 people singing

00:18:31:19 - 00:18:34:17
and it's they are all about their choir
I mean all up front.

00:18:34:17 - 00:18:36:14
But we don't want to see the band. Right.

00:18:36:14 - 00:18:38:10
So it's just it's just
cultures are different.

00:18:38:10 - 00:18:39:09
And so in your scenario

00:18:39:09 - 00:18:42:11
from what I've seen something here,
I've tended here, it's a,

00:18:43:01 - 00:18:46:15
it's more of a, hey,
you're a part of the team,

00:18:47:08 - 00:18:49:23
you know, gain vocals
like we need the vocal sport we want.

00:18:49:23 - 00:18:52:02
We don't need it, we want it.
We want it to be present. Yeah.

00:18:52:02 - 00:18:55:07
And then we want you to lead worship
with body language.

00:18:55:08 - 00:18:56:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:56:10 - 00:19:01:01
Their role is different than someone
on the front line, but no less important.

00:19:01:02 - 00:19:01:06
Yeah.

00:19:01:06 - 00:19:02:05
Like, I want them to understand

00:19:02:05 - 00:19:05:08
that they are leading worship
from where they stand in the loft.

00:19:05:09 - 00:19:07:22
And I believe our choirs
really grabbed onto that.

00:19:07:22 - 00:19:10:13
And that really does make
a humongous difference.

00:19:10:13 - 00:19:13:09
You can feel the difference
in their own stages.

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:14:18
There's a different energy.

00:19:14:18 - 00:19:16:09
Absolutely. Yeah.

00:19:16:09 - 00:19:21:01
one of the things I love about
how you've led the team is rotating

00:19:21:02 - 00:19:23:16
folks on praise team
to be in the choir still.

00:19:23:16 - 00:19:26:15
And because you see this in church
culture to or

00:19:26:15 - 00:19:30:00
some people will treat the choir
or other positions that maybe

00:19:30:00 - 00:19:33:02
are a little less crucial
to Sunday happening as like,

00:19:34:01 - 00:19:37:01
yeah, not important or secondary.

00:19:37:06 - 00:19:42:16
so I'd be curious to know some other
practical ways that you have kind of

00:19:42:17 - 00:19:47:08
combated that common issue
that we find with, with choirs feeling.

00:19:47:08 - 00:19:48:05
Yeah.

00:19:48:05 - 00:19:53:07
Not crucial to Sunday operation
and one team in that vein as well.

00:19:53:08 - 00:19:54:19
Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:54:19 - 00:19:56:07
Well there's a lot there.

00:19:56:07 - 00:19:58:12
We could probably talk this
a time on that.

00:19:58:12 - 00:20:03:23
But to really hit I think the key points
what you've said is very important.

00:20:04:00 - 00:20:07:14
Like if I have somebody come up to me
who's a, who's a guest on Sunday

00:20:07:14 - 00:20:10:18
and they're like, I'm all in,
I want to jump into Concord.

00:20:10:21 - 00:20:11:23
Hey, I love to lead worship.

00:20:11:23 - 00:20:15:12
And their first question is, hey,
how can I become a part of Praise Team?

00:20:15:17 - 00:20:18:10
My answer is always,
what you got to come choir.

00:20:18:10 - 00:20:19:08
You have to come in choir.

00:20:19:08 - 00:20:23:21
And that's for me,
just the best filter in the world.

00:20:24:02 - 00:20:26:03
Like,
if you're not willing to come to choir,

00:20:26:03 - 00:20:27:21
you're not ready to hold a microphone.

00:20:27:21 - 00:20:29:03
Not at our church.

00:20:29:03 - 00:20:32:20
And so that does a couple things.

00:20:32:20 - 00:20:36:18
One, it it shapes the culture

00:20:36:18 - 00:20:38:21
and the attitudes of my worship leaders
that are up front.

00:20:38:21 - 00:20:41:04
But it also enhances choir. Yeah.

00:20:41:04 - 00:20:44:19
I mean,
why would like those energetic worship

00:20:44:19 - 00:20:49:17
leading like the mind
that those leaders bring?

00:20:49:21 - 00:20:51:02
That's what you want in the choir.

00:20:51:02 - 00:20:53:04
And that's
what changes the culture of choir.

00:20:53:04 - 00:20:57:14
And so yeah, bringing fresh blood
in that understands the role of the choir

00:20:57:14 - 00:21:01:14
and the fact that it is a worship
leading role like that, that has made

00:21:01:14 - 00:21:02:10
all the difference in the world.

00:21:02:10 - 00:21:08:02
I think also to which is very
key, is like, if I didn't value choir,

00:21:08:22 - 00:21:13:00
but I said I did, it would be
it would be so obvious 100%.

00:21:13:00 - 00:21:17:20
And so the fact that like
I run choir rehearsal.

00:21:17:21 - 00:21:20:18
Yeah. Am I the best person in the world
to lead choir rehearsal?

00:21:20:18 - 00:21:21:20
Probably not.

00:21:21:20 - 00:21:27:00
But it makes all the difference
in the world as to what we say we value.

00:21:27:01 - 00:21:29:23
We're actually putting blood
and sweat and tears into it.

00:21:29:23 - 00:21:35:08
And so I do think that I could express
that value without running the personal,

00:21:35:18 - 00:21:39:11
you know, myself specifically,
but being present, ministering

00:21:39:17 - 00:21:43:04
to those people, doing life with them.

00:21:43:05 - 00:21:44:12
Yeah. That's everything.

00:21:44:12 - 00:21:46:12
I mean, doing something as simple

00:21:46:12 - 00:21:49:16
as turning around and engaging
with them on stage while I'm leading

00:21:49:18 - 00:21:51:21
because we don't have a conductor
on Sunday mornings.

00:21:51:21 - 00:21:53:06
And that's not my role.

00:21:53:06 - 00:21:56:16
That would, I think, lessen my
effectiveness in leading the congregation

00:21:56:16 - 00:22:00:09
if I were to do that on a Sunday morning,
but just simply turning around and,

00:22:00:10 - 00:22:04:13
you know, you know, pumping them up
or smiling at them or engaging with them,

00:22:04:14 - 00:22:09:09
they feel like they're actually a part
of what I'm trying to lead people into.

00:22:09:10 - 00:22:11:07
And that makes all the difference
in the world.

00:22:11:07 - 00:22:13:02
Yeah, Like practically.

00:22:13:02 - 00:22:17:16
What are some things that you do
during the week to prepare for the week?

00:22:17:17 - 00:22:19:18
So you have choir rehearsal once a week?

00:22:19:18 - 00:22:21:08
Yeah. During, you know, seasonally.

00:22:21:08 - 00:22:23:19
So like, during kind of the school year,

00:22:23:19 - 00:22:25:10
that's
when we'll have regular Wednesday night

00:22:25:10 - 00:22:29:07
rehearsals and you pick them up, you,
you split them up for parts like,

00:22:29:09 - 00:22:31:07
like, let's get into the weeds
a little bit. I'm curious.

00:22:31:07 - 00:22:32:18
Like you give them music.

00:22:32:18 - 00:22:34:11
How do you prep them?

00:22:34:11 - 00:22:37:22
How do you if there's a song that you're
playing that doesn't have a choir part,

00:22:37:23 - 00:22:40:01
how are you going about prepping
all of that? Yeah.

00:22:40:01 - 00:22:42:07
So I would say every song is treated
differently.

00:22:42:07 - 00:22:42:20
Okay.

00:22:42:20 - 00:22:47:02
So, you know, in the same way
that you want a guitar part

00:22:47:03 - 00:22:50:02
to serve the song,
not just have one to have one.

00:22:50:02 - 00:22:53:04
That's how you would
treat choir in the same way.

00:22:54:08 - 00:22:57:10
You know,
thankfully we're getting closer to a day

00:22:57:14 - 00:23:01:02
to where choir music that's available
serves that purpose better.

00:23:01:03 - 00:23:05:07
A lot of times you were just having to do
so much work to make

00:23:05:08 - 00:23:09:00
a choral
arrangement of a song feel modern.

00:23:09:07 - 00:23:12:20
And so,
you know, when it comes to like a weekly

00:23:12:20 - 00:23:16:02
rhythm, you know,
we have our typically Sunday planning.

00:23:16:05 - 00:23:18:07
We have our typical Sunday
planning meeting,

00:23:18:07 - 00:23:22:07
which is probably what everyone would have
at the beginning of their week.

00:23:22:07 - 00:23:27:19
And so as we're looking at Sunday,
I'm working with my assistant to make sure

00:23:27:19 - 00:23:31:18
that we've got the appropriate music
ready for Wednesday night

00:23:31:18 - 00:23:34:03
specifically, specifically for Sunday.

00:23:34:03 - 00:23:36:17
But we also have to pace out.

00:23:36:17 - 00:23:39:13
Okay, these new songs are coming up,

00:23:39:13 - 00:23:43:10
and so I have to pace and prioritize
certain songs in rehearsal.

00:23:43:10 - 00:23:44:21
And so having a choir,

00:23:44:21 - 00:23:48:09
I think that's a good point to make here,
like having a choir in and of itself

00:23:48:15 - 00:23:50:11
changes everything
when it comes to planning.

00:23:50:11 - 00:23:56:06
So like, you know, I can't just
throw in a song any time now we could.

00:23:56:07 - 00:24:01:13
But it comes with the acknowledgment
that they will not be able to participate

00:24:01:13 - 00:24:06:12
or engage as much as, as if I have
the opportunity to prepare them well.

00:24:06:22 - 00:24:10:10
But getting a song on a date
on the calendar

00:24:10:10 - 00:24:13:10
is crucial, so that I can pace it
in rehearsal when it's a new song.

00:24:13:20 - 00:24:16:12
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Now back to the show.

00:24:42:11 - 00:24:47:01
yeah, that that all goes into,
you know, preparing for a rehearsal.

00:24:47:02 - 00:24:48:09
You know, we have to purchase music.

00:24:48:09 - 00:24:50:14
There's plenty of places
to purchase music.

00:24:50:14 - 00:24:54:10
That's probably something we could help
post that later after this podcast.

00:24:54:11 - 00:24:55:03
Yeah.

00:24:55:03 - 00:24:58:21
But yeah,
you know, we're deciding for each song.

00:24:58:22 - 00:25:00:01
You know what makes sense?

00:25:00:01 - 00:25:03:10
Are they going to sing the melody,
the majority of the song

00:25:03:10 - 00:25:04:23
and just sing parts on the chorus?

00:25:04:23 - 00:25:07:02
That's a common kind of approach.

00:25:07:02 - 00:25:10:02
Are they going to sing
four parts on this?

00:25:10:02 - 00:25:12:17
You know, a lot of times
we're defaulting to that

00:25:12:17 - 00:25:15:07
just because that's
what our choir is comfortable.

00:25:15:07 - 00:25:15:12
Yeah.

00:25:15:12 - 00:25:19:15
If you were starting a choir from scratch
or just trying to go for a purely modern

00:25:19:15 - 00:25:23:20
approach, you know, you
probably just do 2 to 3 parts, probably.

00:25:23:20 - 00:25:27:00
Most likely you're not doing four parts
on a regular basis.

00:25:27:07 - 00:25:30:04
And then, you know, once
you got your music in order, you know,

00:25:30:04 - 00:25:34:01
my role as the choir,
you know, rehearse or the leader.

00:25:34:05 - 00:25:37:11
I'm honestly preparing for it
in the same way that I would prepare

00:25:37:11 - 00:25:38:14
for a Sunday morning. Yeah.

00:25:38:14 - 00:25:40:05
And so I'm preparing spiritually.

00:25:40:05 - 00:25:42:11
And, you know, it's not the appeal.

00:25:42:11 - 00:25:45:01
The appeal of choir rehearsal
is really not the notes.

00:25:45:01 - 00:25:45:10
It's really

00:25:45:10 - 00:25:48:14
it's not the work, it's the fellowship
the people get to come be a part of.

00:25:48:15 - 00:25:50:16
It's the community, the fun.

00:25:50:16 - 00:25:52:08
We want to laugh together.

00:25:52:08 - 00:25:53:11
If we're not laughing, then,

00:25:53:11 - 00:25:57:06
you know, it's it's
not that community that we want to foster.

00:25:57:06 - 00:25:59:21
And so what kind of moments
am I going to bring?

00:25:59:21 - 00:26:02:19
How am I going to enhance
what we're singing with Scripture?

00:26:02:19 - 00:26:06:21
How am I going to open their eyes
to see why this song is going to

00:26:06:22 - 00:26:08:21
facilitate
what we want to accomplish on Sunday?

00:26:08:21 - 00:26:09:21
Really? Well, yeah.

00:26:09:21 - 00:26:13:05
And how can we, you know, pray over one
another, minister to one another.

00:26:13:05 - 00:26:16:07
So all of that goes into a choir rehearsal
that I think a lot of people that sit

00:26:16:07 - 00:26:20:07
on the outside of what choir even is like
that.

00:26:20:07 - 00:26:23:20
That's the value of choir
that people don't see on a Sunday morning

00:26:23:21 - 00:26:28:10
unless they're a part of it,
and really is the lifeblood of why

00:26:28:11 - 00:26:31:22
our choir is still successful here
because of Wednesday nights.

00:26:32:07 - 00:26:33:02
Do you guys,

00:26:33:02 - 00:26:36:20
what's your thoughts on track support
to make the choir feel more full?

00:26:36:21 - 00:26:38:00
Yeah, yeah.

00:26:38:00 - 00:26:42:04
So, you know, it would be
the same approach that we would apply to

00:26:42:05 - 00:26:44:05
the instrumentation on Sunday morning.

00:26:44:05 - 00:26:48:09
So you know
we want to hear live instruments.

00:26:48:09 - 00:26:51:11
But we understand that
foundational element that provides

00:26:51:11 - 00:26:54:20
the body and the consistency
on an instrumental level.

00:26:54:20 - 00:26:57:02
So we would approach it the same vocally.

00:26:57:02 - 00:27:01:10
So so you so you have visually on stage of
you have my overhead mics on requires.

00:27:01:10 - 00:27:01:17
Yeah.

00:27:01:17 - 00:27:06:17
So we have three four and blink twice
if they're plugged in.

00:27:06:18 - 00:27:08:09
They're there. Yeah.

00:27:08:09 - 00:27:09:02
No they're plugged in.

00:27:09:02 - 00:27:11:09
So you're hearing live choir.

00:27:11:09 - 00:27:15:06
Yeah I know plenty of churches
I know that are just there.

00:27:15:06 - 00:27:16:02
Mics are just up there.

00:27:16:02 - 00:27:17:06
There's nothing on the other end

00:27:17:06 - 00:27:20:12
they didn't even try to like
it's just coiled They're plugged in.

00:27:20:15 - 00:27:21:12
Forget about it. Yeah.

00:27:21:12 - 00:27:25:15
You know and that goes back to our value
when it comes to.

00:27:25:18 - 00:27:27:07
Yeah we do some things differently.

00:27:27:07 - 00:27:29:19
And even in the way we mix
you know we have a modern sound.

00:27:29:19 - 00:27:31:15
We want the band to be foundational.

00:27:31:15 - 00:27:34:01
We want the worship leader
to be out in front.

00:27:34:01 - 00:27:37:23
But like when I spoke to our production
director, Zach,

00:27:37:23 - 00:27:39:10
when he first came on staff,
he was like, well,

00:27:39:10 - 00:27:40:15
how do you want it to sound? I was like,

00:27:40:15 - 00:27:44:05
I want it to sound like there's
a thousand people singing on stage.

00:27:44:10 - 00:27:47:07
And so we do some things creatively
with the way we mic

00:27:47:07 - 00:27:48:15
to just get that body of sound.

00:27:48:15 - 00:27:52:18
We choose specific
mics to get, you know, body and clarity.

00:27:53:04 - 00:27:56:11
But we do use vocal tracks for support.

00:27:56:11 - 00:27:58:11
That does two things for us.

00:27:58:11 - 00:28:02:05
One, it gives our front of house
a consistent layer of sound.

00:28:02:06 - 00:28:06:15
Sometimes we have less choir show, like
it's the Sunday after fall break, right?

00:28:06:17 - 00:28:09:02
You know, sometimes we have more.

00:28:09:02 - 00:28:12:09
And so rather than letting that play
a factor

00:28:12:09 - 00:28:15:18
into what's affecting the mix,
we want that foundational layer.

00:28:15:18 - 00:28:19:02
But it also provides us a layer
to pump back at our choir,

00:28:19:02 - 00:28:22:17
which helps them saying their parts
more confidently and sing louder as well.

00:28:22:18 - 00:28:25:12
Because. Because they have it,
you know, going at them.

00:28:25:12 - 00:28:26:02
Yeah. That's good.

00:28:26:02 - 00:28:28:12
This has been very good.
I want to shift gears a little bit. Yeah.

00:28:29:17 - 00:28:33:01
David, you, I think,
are probably the youngest worship pastor

00:28:33:01 - 00:28:36:01
in the Southern Baptist Church
I've ever met.

00:28:36:03 - 00:28:39:18
I'm sure there are people who are younger,
but I'm like, I'm super curious

00:28:39:19 - 00:28:43:22
in a church with this much history
and in legacy.

00:28:44:20 - 00:28:46:19
Yeah.

00:28:46:19 - 00:28:49:03
I'd love to talk a little bit
about that journey of you.

00:28:49:03 - 00:28:50:15
I mean, because you've been
in this role for a while.

00:28:50:15 - 00:28:54:16
So like when you stepped
in, you were 11 years younger. Yep.

00:28:54:16 - 00:28:56:15
how long has it been
since you've been the worship pastor?

00:28:56:15 - 00:28:57:22
Since 2020, 2020.

00:28:57:22 - 00:29:01:19
So March 2020,
which was an interesting month.

00:29:01:23 - 00:29:04:13
Yeah. To become worship pastor
because shut down.

00:29:04:13 - 00:29:07:10
This is something that comes up. I'm
talking to churches all day, every day.

00:29:07:10 - 00:29:12:18
And it's something that just so frequently
comes up of of young guys, young gals

00:29:12:19 - 00:29:15:21
going, I just feel like I,

00:29:17:18 - 00:29:18:17
I can't,

00:29:18:17 - 00:29:22:15
I can't get any momentum with my team,
our culture, because

00:29:23:19 - 00:29:27:03
some of these people got baptized
in this church before I was born.

00:29:27:04 - 00:29:27:13
Yeah.

00:29:27:13 - 00:29:30:17
And we all know
and we can get into some of this,

00:29:30:18 - 00:29:34:20
you know, whether it's sound complaints,
whether it's culture, song selection.

00:29:34:21 - 00:29:35:07
Yeah.

00:29:35:07 - 00:29:39:01
All the things and how you have navigated
that a little bit.

00:29:39:02 - 00:29:42:08
I don't know if you have any thing
you want to add to that, but I really

00:29:43:06 - 00:29:45:22
I think this could be therapeutic
for some listening,

00:29:45:22 - 00:29:48:14
but they are not alone in some of that.
Yeah.

00:29:48:14 - 00:29:50:11
What has been like

00:29:50:11 - 00:29:53:02
tell us about that journey a little bit
and I'm sure we'll get into more specifics

00:29:53:02 - 00:29:54:12
as we go. Yeah.

00:29:54:12 - 00:29:56:19
Well to go back to your point,

00:29:56:19 - 00:30:00:00
I was 27 years old
when I became the worst pastor here.

00:30:00:07 - 00:30:03:14
Probably was too young, like just,
you know, being honest, there were

00:30:03:14 - 00:30:09:14
so many immediate roadblocks and barriers
when I stepped into the role.

00:30:09:15 - 00:30:10:21
I mean, Covid being one of them.

00:30:10:21 - 00:30:13:21
But even if Covid had not happened,

00:30:13:21 - 00:30:17:14
I was stepping into what was going to be
a very challenging road.

00:30:18:00 - 00:30:21:20
And so,
you know, for guys that are listening and,

00:30:21:21 - 00:30:25:12
you know, maybe in a similar scenario,
you know,

00:30:25:23 - 00:30:28:18
if I can affirm
what they're probably feeling like

00:30:28:18 - 00:30:33:01
when I first stepped into the role,
ministering to people that were largely

00:30:33:02 - 00:30:37:07
like older than me, but like,
not even close, you know, like, could not

00:30:37:08 - 00:30:40:11
not just could have been my dad,
but could have been my grandfather.

00:30:40:12 - 00:30:40:22
Yeah.

00:30:40:22 - 00:30:45:07
And a lot of especially
when it came to choir, you know,

00:30:45:08 - 00:30:48:12
I experienced what I would describe
as probably imposter syndrome.

00:30:48:12 - 00:30:48:18
Yeah.

00:30:48:18 - 00:30:52:23
For the longest time, because I felt like,
okay, if I'm going to lead,

00:30:52:23 - 00:30:56:04
well, then I've got to be larger than life
in everything that I do.

00:30:56:05 - 00:30:59:08
So every room that I walked into
would have my guard up.

00:30:59:15 - 00:31:00:06
Yeah.

00:31:00:06 - 00:31:02:18
Does it almost kind of lead you
to a place of inauthenticity?

00:31:02:18 - 00:31:04:14
Like, because you're like, I can't be.

00:31:04:14 - 00:31:08:12
Yeah, well, it's
especially dangerous as a young person.

00:31:08:13 - 00:31:14:06
Yeah, because I'm not sure that I had
a foundational idea of who I was.

00:31:14:07 - 00:31:14:20
Yeah.

00:31:14:20 - 00:31:19:01
And so it can be even harder
to identify who you're not.

00:31:19:07 - 00:31:22:20
So you just feeling this
imposter syndrome

00:31:22:21 - 00:31:25:21
of, like,
I don't know if I can maintain this.

00:31:25:21 - 00:31:29:06
And it wasn't that I was being fake
or inauthentic.

00:31:29:07 - 00:31:34:07
I was just it's just that guard up that
level of, like, I've always got to be on.

00:31:34:07 - 00:31:36:07
I've always got to have a spiritual
thought ready.

00:31:36:07 - 00:31:40:01
I've always got a, you know,
and just exhausting yourself emotionally.

00:31:40:09 - 00:31:43:03
And so, you know,

00:31:43:03 - 00:31:46:15
when,
when we kind of began that role like,

00:31:46:16 - 00:31:48:06
you know, even preparing for choir,

00:31:48:06 - 00:31:51:11
kind of going back to what
we were talking to second ago, like

00:31:51:12 - 00:31:56:21
I would spend all day Tuesday
and Wednesday because I wanted to be

00:31:57:11 - 00:32:00:05
I wanted people to feel my presence

00:32:00:05 - 00:32:03:09
when I walked into the room,
you know, right, wrong and different.

00:32:03:10 - 00:32:05:08
Like, again, my intentions were good.

00:32:05:08 - 00:32:06:18
I just wanted to lead our people.

00:32:06:18 - 00:32:10:02
Yeah, but I was so afraid of failing
because I knew

00:32:10:03 - 00:32:12:17
that eyes were on me to fail.

00:32:12:17 - 00:32:13:12
He's too young.

00:32:13:12 - 00:32:14:19
He's too young for this role.

00:32:14:19 - 00:32:16:19
What is he doing? He's not.

00:32:16:19 - 00:32:18:05
He doesn't know what he's doing, you know?

00:32:18:05 - 00:32:24:06
And so, you know, that's that's
what I'm feeling in the early days.

00:32:24:06 - 00:32:27:06
And I will say,
what made all the difference in the world

00:32:27:06 - 00:32:31:17
is I had guys who were,

00:32:32:05 - 00:32:35:04
you know, my dad's age
or even a little younger

00:32:35:04 - 00:32:40:17
that just reached out to me
and just at the right time would call me.

00:32:40:20 - 00:32:45:19
Yeah, and just give me that, like, hey,
what you're feeling is not crazy.

00:32:45:20 - 00:32:48:03
Like, hey, what you're doing is good.

00:32:48:03 - 00:32:50:12
Hey, you can do this. You know,

00:32:52:12 - 00:32:53:20
how can I better answer the question?

00:32:53:20 - 00:32:56:17
Like, ask me. Yeah. No, I'm I want to.

00:32:56:17 - 00:32:59:10
I just thought that was really thoughtful,
and I appreciate the response.

00:32:59:10 - 00:33:00:18
That's very honest and vulnerable.

00:33:00:18 - 00:33:03:11
I think everybody feels that tension.

00:33:03:11 - 00:33:06:06
there's probably somebody listening
right now that's like

00:33:06:06 - 00:33:09:18
he just said he was
he was probably too young at 27.

00:33:09:18 - 00:33:11:15
And I'm 25. Yeah.

00:33:11:15 - 00:33:13:23
Am I too young to be doing this?

00:33:13:23 - 00:33:16:18
should they be able to look out
and be in a similar life stage

00:33:16:18 - 00:33:19:18
to the majority of the people
they're leading or.

00:33:21:03 - 00:33:23:18
Well, you know, I think,

00:33:23:18 - 00:33:26:09
you know,
I said, yeah, I probably was too young.

00:33:26:09 - 00:33:30:04
What I'm saying in
that is I'm admitting that looking back,

00:33:30:12 - 00:33:33:14
I was so less
prepared for that than I wanted to admit.

00:33:33:18 - 00:33:35:03
That's all. I mean, okay.

00:33:35:03 - 00:33:38:09
And so I think it's very healthy
to be able to admit that,

00:33:38:10 - 00:33:43:06
because I think
my biggest barrier in succeeding

00:33:43:23 - 00:33:47:14
was that I wasn't willing to ask for help

00:33:48:00 - 00:33:51:06
when I really needed it,
because I was putting so much pressure

00:33:51:06 - 00:33:54:23
on myself
to be ready in areas that I just wasn't.

00:33:55:01 - 00:33:59:02
I just wasn't as if to admit that I needed
help was to,

00:33:59:04 - 00:34:01:17
you know, admit that I was failing
or not good enough,

00:34:01:17 - 00:34:04:10
or that somebody made a mistake
by putting me in this role.

00:34:04:10 - 00:34:06:19
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

00:34:06:19 - 00:34:07:21
What are your thoughts on that?

00:34:07:21 - 00:34:10:15
I mean, I don't know if there's like a

00:34:11:15 - 00:34:14:08
yes or no too young to old.

00:34:14:08 - 00:34:15:17
Yeah. Like hard answer.

00:34:15:17 - 00:34:20:04
Like I think it's just, you know,
culture plays a big role in that.

00:34:20:18 - 00:34:24:07
In my, my advice to anybody that's
young is just ask more questions

00:34:24:07 - 00:34:27:00
than you have answers, and you'll gain
the respect of those around you.

00:34:27:00 - 00:34:27:14
Yeah.

00:34:27:14 - 00:34:29:13
If you walk in a 25 year old

00:34:29:13 - 00:34:32:13
and you think you know it
all, you have all the answers.

00:34:33:10 - 00:34:35:20
Even if you know that
if we make this shift

00:34:35:20 - 00:34:38:10
today, it's
going to help us in five years.

00:34:38:10 - 00:34:42:00
But I would just advise that person
listening still today.

00:34:42:01 - 00:34:43:07
I mean, all of us

00:34:43:07 - 00:34:47:18
lead people older than us in our companies
we own or churches we serve at it.

00:34:47:18 - 00:34:49:19
That doesn't go away, right?

00:34:49:19 - 00:34:53:16
So approaching it with patience and grace

00:34:53:17 - 00:34:58:21
and more questions and answers based off
my experience will take you a long ways.

00:34:58:22 - 00:35:03:15
What older people want to see
is that this younger guy or girl

00:35:04:07 - 00:35:06:23
is coming in from a humble spirit,

00:35:06:23 - 00:35:10:00
not a I'm the best spirit, right?

00:35:10:06 - 00:35:12:11
That's
what I think an older person wants to see.

00:35:12:11 - 00:35:13:18
Yeah, a mature

00:35:13:18 - 00:35:18:03
older person knows this person can lead me
well because they're mature.

00:35:18:04 - 00:35:19:05
Yeah.

00:35:19:05 - 00:35:22:06
They're not
they're not even going to feel.

00:35:22:12 - 00:35:23:15
They'll feel the, the,

00:35:24:23 - 00:35:27:14
the effects of being

00:35:27:14 - 00:35:30:21
led if they're being led well,
but they're not going to feel led. No.

00:35:30:22 - 00:35:32:09
Right. Like it's like no.

00:35:32:09 - 00:35:34:23
And it's because of the approach
of that young leader. Yeah.

00:35:34:23 - 00:35:38:21
Unfortunately what we see in most scenario
sometimes is

00:35:39:21 - 00:35:42:19
you hire this new young cat.

00:35:42:19 - 00:35:43:19
I mean, you came from Preston.

00:35:43:19 - 00:35:44:13
Would you have

00:35:44:13 - 00:35:46:20
every reason to come in here and be like,
I can't even press the wood?

00:35:46:20 - 00:35:49:17
Yeah, you you guys will never be Preston
Wood.

00:35:49:17 - 00:35:50:23
You'll never be that size.

00:35:50:23 - 00:35:52:13
You'll never have that staff dollar.

00:35:52:13 - 00:35:54:16
You'll never do this.
You'll never do that. That.

00:35:54:16 - 00:35:55:08
That was me.

00:35:55:08 - 00:35:58:17
When I came into a church, into Knoxville,
I carried that poor attitude.

00:35:58:17 - 00:35:59:23
I'm from this church.

00:35:59:23 - 00:36:02:14
Yeah, I'm from a church
you guys want to be. Yeah.

00:36:02:14 - 00:36:04:02
Why are you not listening to me? Right.

00:36:04:02 - 00:36:05:13
I have all the answers.

00:36:05:13 - 00:36:07:10
Yeah, I have everything it needs.

00:36:07:10 - 00:36:08:19
I have everything.

00:36:08:19 - 00:36:09:16
Was that legitimate?

00:36:09:16 - 00:36:11:19
You're like when you and I said.

00:36:11:19 - 00:36:13:12
I said it on the podcast several times.

00:36:13:12 - 00:36:15:09
I mean, we lost tons of volunteers.

00:36:15:09 - 00:36:15:20
Yeah.

00:36:15:20 - 00:36:17:11
I remember sitting in meetings of guys

00:36:17:11 - 00:36:21:11
that that served in that ministry
for a decade, going starting tonight,

00:36:21:12 - 00:36:23:21
none of you will do anything
that you've ever done in the past.

00:36:23:21 - 00:36:26:12
Yeah. How do you think that went? Yeah.

00:36:26:12 - 00:36:27:15
There's a mass exodus.

00:36:27:15 - 00:36:27:23
Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:27:23 - 00:36:29:15
It was such poor leadership.

00:36:29:15 - 00:36:30:02
Yeah.

00:36:30:02 - 00:36:33:08
So like I said before,
also the things I say on this podcast

00:36:33:09 - 00:36:36:22
is, is mainly life lessons
that I've had to learn in my leadership.

00:36:36:23 - 00:36:37:09
Yeah.

00:36:37:09 - 00:36:40:03
But you know,
when I, when I hear that story

00:36:40:03 - 00:36:43:03
and I think about my own, I think like

00:36:44:00 - 00:36:48:17
how easy it would be to kind of end up
in this kind of feeling of being a martyr,

00:36:48:18 - 00:36:51:20
like, oh, well, he threw me into soon
and I made all these mistakes.

00:36:51:20 - 00:36:55:04
But in reality, what a gift
that I was able to make those mistakes.

00:36:55:04 - 00:36:56:12
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:36:56:12 - 00:37:02:07
And so like I did feel the need to be
an expert in areas that I just wasn't.

00:37:02:07 - 00:37:05:22
And what I found
was exactly what you're saying, which

00:37:06:23 - 00:37:07:11
which

00:37:07:11 - 00:37:10:15
would have relieved the pressure so much,
which is the people

00:37:10:15 - 00:37:14:11
that I am stewarded

00:37:14:11 - 00:37:19:05
with like asked
and and called by the Lord to lead.

00:37:19:11 - 00:37:24:02
They just want to see that I'm walking
with the Lord.

00:37:24:09 - 00:37:25:16
That's it.

00:37:25:16 - 00:37:28:15
They don't need me to have an answer
to every question.

00:37:28:15 - 00:37:29:23
In fact, it helps.

00:37:29:23 - 00:37:33:12
Like it's actually refreshing, I think, to
our people when I say, I don't know.

00:37:33:13 - 00:37:36:02
Yeah, certainly
I don't know. I'm not sure.

00:37:36:02 - 00:37:39:11
We'll kind of pray through that together
and and we'll figure it out.

00:37:39:12 - 00:37:41:16
And so,

00:37:41:16 - 00:37:43:22
you know, not coming

00:37:43:22 - 00:37:47:15
to everything from a level of expertise,
but just seeking the Lord in all things.

00:37:47:15 - 00:37:49:15
And you know,
that's not to over spiritualize

00:37:49:15 - 00:37:53:01
just the just
the plain leadership aspect of it,

00:37:53:11 - 00:37:59:03
but people just want to see exactly
what you're saying, that you're

00:37:59:03 - 00:38:02:11
walking all things in humility, you know,
which means that you need to.

00:38:02:14 - 00:38:07:05
We made a bad choice when you made it,
you know, when you spoke out of turn

00:38:07:14 - 00:38:09:20
and you said something that was untrue
accidentally.

00:38:09:20 - 00:38:11:20
That makes
all the difference in the world.

00:38:11:20 - 00:38:14:09
And it's made all the difference
in my ministry here.

00:38:14:09 - 00:38:17:21
And I think it's also helpful
for young leaders to know,

00:38:18:11 - 00:38:19:13
of course, you're going to have scenarios

00:38:19:13 - 00:38:22:13
where where you're like, man,
I just totally blew it right there.

00:38:22:16 - 00:38:26:02
But you also might do everything right
and have everybody leave, like,

00:38:26:03 - 00:38:28:11
you're not going to be the leader
for everybody.

00:38:28:11 - 00:38:30:23
And I think a lot of young guys
need to hear that.

00:38:30:23 - 00:38:32:12
I needed to hear that. Yeah.

00:38:32:12 - 00:38:35:12
Our choir, by the grace of God,

00:38:35:18 - 00:38:39:07
there's so many faces in our choir
that were there on day one.

00:38:39:11 - 00:38:41:07
There's a lot of faces that aren't. Yeah.

00:38:41:07 - 00:38:45:03
You know, but also, by the grace of God,
there's so many new faces

00:38:45:03 - 00:38:46:14
that are so excited to be there.

00:38:46:14 - 00:38:49:22
And so staying faithful to the Lord,

00:38:51:05 - 00:38:53:21
you know, he has blessed the ministry.

00:38:53:21 - 00:38:54:22
Like that's what he blesses.

00:38:54:22 - 00:39:00:11
And so I could have thrown in the towel
many times.

00:39:00:18 - 00:39:02:01
Many times.

00:39:02:01 - 00:39:04:20
Why didn't you?

00:39:04:20 - 00:39:06:06
Because I can't.

00:39:06:06 - 00:39:10:04
Like I, I could
if I can break down that answer like

00:39:11:11 - 00:39:14:11
I think.

00:39:14:17 - 00:39:18:10
Maybe some, maybe some of the other
young guys can resonate with this.

00:39:18:10 - 00:39:20:01
I don't know, this is just me.

00:39:20:01 - 00:39:23:01
Yeah, but.

00:39:24:09 - 00:39:27:06
When I look at my own story
and I hear, like,

00:39:27:06 - 00:39:30:05
what you're talking about, like, yeah,
there are plenty of other

00:39:30:05 - 00:39:33:23
just kind of modern churches
that have young worship pastors.

00:39:34:01 - 00:39:36:18
Well, like, that wasn't lost on me.

00:39:36:18 - 00:39:38:15
Like when I became worship pastor here.

00:39:38:15 - 00:39:42:05
And I was encountered just with all these
difficulties and challenges.

00:39:42:05 - 00:39:44:06
And I looked at my friends
that were the same age

00:39:44:06 - 00:39:48:01
and just kind of rocking and rolling,
you know, just like five year church plan.

00:39:48:05 - 00:39:48:12
Yeah.

00:39:48:12 - 00:39:51:09
Like no one's doing
what I'm. Nobody's doing this. Yeah.

00:39:51:09 - 00:39:53:04
And somebody is.
But that's what it felt like.

00:39:53:04 - 00:39:54:13
I was like, yeah, I was doing this.
It always does.

00:39:54:13 - 00:39:57:14
Why am I doing this? Yeah. And so

00:39:58:16 - 00:39:59:15
because I felt

00:39:59:15 - 00:40:04:05
specifically called to take the role here,

00:40:05:00 - 00:40:08:00
I think at times
it felt a little bit like handcuffs.

00:40:08:13 - 00:40:13:22
And so that's just a, you know,
a statement of just pure raw honesty.

00:40:13:23 - 00:40:14:15
Yeah.

00:40:14:15 - 00:40:17:17
I think there's times when a calling
can feel like handcuffs. Yep.

00:40:17:23 - 00:40:20:07
And so

00:40:20:07 - 00:40:23:06
I you know, if I had allowed my mindset

00:40:23:06 - 00:40:26:11
to remain in that place,
how easy it would have been

00:40:26:11 - 00:40:30:02
to just kind of roll over and being,
you know, like,

00:40:30:03 - 00:40:31:15
I just can't do this anymore

00:40:31:15 - 00:40:34:11
because there were days
and there may be days in the future,

00:40:34:11 - 00:40:38:01
but like there were days
where I was just like, I'm so emotionally

00:40:38:16 - 00:40:41:14
below zero, I don't even know how to.

00:40:41:14 - 00:40:43:11
I don't even know how to climb back out.

00:40:43:11 - 00:40:45:15
I don't know, and nobody knows that.

00:40:45:15 - 00:40:46:16
Yeah, you know,

00:40:46:16 - 00:40:50:16
because we're called to lead
no matter how I'm feeling at the moment.

00:40:51:09 - 00:40:56:14
But, like, why didn't I quit?

00:40:56:17 - 00:40:59:01
Because that calling
just matters so much to me.

00:40:59:01 - 00:41:04:05
And so there are guys
that are in very difficult situations

00:41:04:13 - 00:41:07:22
that just don't know what to do.

00:41:07:22 - 00:41:11:21
And my encouragement
to them would be, you know,

00:41:13:01 - 00:41:14:08
I love the Winston Churchill

00:41:14:08 - 00:41:18:03
quote, like, failure is not fatal,
success is not final.

00:41:18:04 - 00:41:20:03
Like it's the courage
to continue that counts.

00:41:20:03 - 00:41:23:22
It's just the it's
just the courage to continue that matters.

00:41:23:23 - 00:41:24:07
Yeah.

00:41:24:07 - 00:41:26:11
And ask for help, you know.

00:41:26:11 - 00:41:28:11
So there's a lot in there.

00:41:28:11 - 00:41:31:11
But like, I've got a long journey of like,

00:41:31:12 - 00:41:34:18
why I'm still here is because there were

00:41:35:09 - 00:41:38:09
older guys that stepped in at the
at the right moment.

00:41:39:07 - 00:41:42:04
I wasn't afraid to get counseling.

00:41:42:04 - 00:41:42:19
Yeah.

00:41:42:19 - 00:41:47:14
Now I was, now I was, but I wasn't, like,
there came a point where I wasn't.

00:41:47:17 - 00:41:51:18
Well, I think I mean, from my perspective,
maybe I'm wrong, but I could imagine,

00:41:51:19 - 00:41:55:00
you know, because JM
John Mark, senior pastor here,

00:41:55:13 - 00:41:58:18
relatively younger, senior pastor, too,
for for a church.

00:41:58:19 - 00:42:01:04
Yeah, like like church like this. Yeah.

00:42:01:04 - 00:42:02:23
And they thought he was a child. Yeah.

00:42:02:23 - 00:42:05:23
He was,
he was late 30s when he came. Yeah.

00:42:05:23 - 00:42:09:09
So I'd imagine
that's incredibly helpful as well

00:42:09:14 - 00:42:12:16
because as spiritual authority. Right.

00:42:12:17 - 00:42:16:04
Like you can go to him
and there's a level of relatability

00:42:16:10 - 00:42:19:09
and I know firsthand
because a lot of my best friends either

00:42:19:09 - 00:42:20:11
work here or attend here.

00:42:20:11 - 00:42:25:00
And I know
firsthand the amount of respect

00:42:25:00 - 00:42:27:22
they not only have for you,
but they have for JM.

00:42:27:22 - 00:42:31:23
Like there's a level of respect
when they talk about your pastor like he

00:42:32:00 - 00:42:33:07
he gets it, he cares.

00:42:33:07 - 00:42:36:15
He sees. Yeah,
he wants us to move forward.

00:42:36:17 - 00:42:37:05
Yeah.

00:42:37:05 - 00:42:42:12
When you surround yourself with
very talented, especially production guys

00:42:43:11 - 00:42:45:10
and they don't

00:42:45:10 - 00:42:48:10
feel like we're moving forward, man,
they just jump ship.

00:42:48:11 - 00:42:50:18
They got to be a part of something
that's moving forward. Yeah.

00:42:50:18 - 00:42:55:08
when churches start going doing this
and we feel like we're mundane

00:42:55:08 - 00:42:58:22
and we're routine and it's just I'm here
to do the same thing I do every Sunday.

00:42:58:22 - 00:43:01:17
And where does it get challenging
and how are you going to push me?

00:43:01:17 - 00:43:04:18
That's when we start
having those thoughts of man be here.

00:43:05:07 - 00:43:07:01
Maybe I'm supposed to move on, right?

00:43:07:01 - 00:43:09:22
So it's good to know that

00:43:09:22 - 00:43:13:10
coming out of here, the leadership here
is always a press forward.

00:43:13:11 - 00:43:16:05
Yeah there's more.
So we must press mentality you know.

00:43:16:05 - 00:43:17:11
Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:17:11 - 00:43:22:15
So you know going back to that
that leadership model of a young person

00:43:22:16 - 00:43:25:06
leading people that are older than him
like our pastor models that.

00:43:25:06 - 00:43:27:14
Well but he models that man.

00:43:27:14 - 00:43:29:13
He nobody works harder than him.

00:43:29:13 - 00:43:32:16
And he he walks
the Lord in all things that he does.

00:43:32:17 - 00:43:34:14
Very intense personality.

00:43:34:14 - 00:43:37:14
But what makes him so follow

00:43:38:00 - 00:43:40:17
is two things like he's interrupted,

00:43:42:07 - 00:43:44:03
I don't know
a lot of pastors that are interrupted.

00:43:44:03 - 00:43:44:22
Yeah.

00:43:44:22 - 00:43:49:00
And he's, he's he's approachable.

00:43:49:00 - 00:43:53:02
So, like, you know, he he's the senior
pastor of a very large church.

00:43:53:03 - 00:43:56:04
Yeah. He has a lot of reasons to say no.

00:43:56:05 - 00:43:57:15
And,

00:43:57:15 - 00:44:00:22
you know, when I've had very difficult,
challenging moments,

00:44:01:14 - 00:44:05:08
just personally as a family, like, he's
the one that comes over to the house

00:44:05:13 - 00:44:10:13
and checks on me, you know, that trickles
down and matters to our team.

00:44:10:14 - 00:44:15:04
And so that drive to push forward,
like that's just who he is.

00:44:15:04 - 00:44:17:19
That's how he's made.

00:44:17:19 - 00:44:20:13
And so it's it's changed our church.

00:44:20:13 - 00:44:22:01
It's changed the DNA of our church.

00:44:22:01 - 00:44:24:09
And he's got a high permission.

00:44:24:09 - 00:44:26:01
High trust.

00:44:26:01 - 00:44:28:10
Like the way he leads
is just with high trust.

00:44:28:10 - 00:44:31:18
And so there's a lot of freedom
in what we do,

00:44:31:19 - 00:44:33:19
which comes with a lot of accountability
as well.

00:44:33:19 - 00:44:36:00
Like he wants it to be good, you know.

00:44:36:00 - 00:44:42:04
But I have been here 11 years
and so I have seen a lot of change here.

00:44:42:04 - 00:44:47:20
And so like, you know,
I think talking to the young leaders

00:44:47:21 - 00:44:51:18
again, like Well,
when you're at a church like, you know,

00:44:51:20 - 00:44:55:15
there is a
there is a wise way to manage change,

00:44:55:23 - 00:45:00:16
you know, and so where I've learned a lot
is honestly the,

00:45:00:16 - 00:45:05:04
you know, healthy, wise leadership
that our senior pastor has led.

00:45:05:04 - 00:45:09:03
So like, not just worship ministry change,
but just on a church

00:45:09:04 - 00:45:11:22
like the whole church, he's led change.

00:45:11:22 - 00:45:14:07
I believe in a
in a very healthy way. Yeah.

00:45:14:07 - 00:45:17:22
Which means he paces it
sometimes in a way that feels slower

00:45:17:22 - 00:45:18:22
than we would want to go.

00:45:18:22 - 00:45:20:09
Although there are times where it's like,

00:45:20:09 - 00:45:22:06
let's go and,
you know, like, okay, you know,

00:45:22:06 - 00:45:24:09
I need to pick up my stuff and go like,
go by train.

00:45:24:09 - 00:45:26:23
Yeah, yeah, let's go by train.
That's another story.

00:45:26:23 - 00:45:31:06
But it also means, you know,
as a young person who's looking at

00:45:31:08 - 00:45:34:08
other friends that are at modern churches
and, you know, I'm at a legacy church,

00:45:34:10 - 00:45:36:01
it just means that

00:45:36:01 - 00:45:39:10
although we're always moving towards
something, it means I'm going to live

00:45:39:10 - 00:45:43:21
with things that are not necessarily
my favorite because it's not about me.

00:45:43:21 - 00:45:46:15
At the end of the day, it's
about what I've been stewarded with. Yeah.

00:45:46:15 - 00:45:53:06
You know, and so not basing my feeling
or my understanding of success based off

00:45:53:06 - 00:45:58:03
of whatever this ideal modern worship
box is, and not basing it off

00:45:58:03 - 00:46:01:11
of what my friends are able to accomplish,
but basing it off of like,

00:46:01:12 - 00:46:05:12
man, when I look back six years ago
and I see where we were

00:46:06:02 - 00:46:11:10
versus now, where I see baptisms
regularly and I see passionate

00:46:11:10 - 00:46:15:05
worship, and I see the
the diversity in our church change.

00:46:15:05 - 00:46:18:06
Like those are all things
that make it worth it, you know,

00:46:18:15 - 00:46:22:04
whereas, you know,
the things that are less compelling, like,

00:46:22:05 - 00:46:25:05
you know,
whether we have a choir or not, like,

00:46:25:06 - 00:46:28:23
those are the things that don't
inspire you to continue in ministry.

00:46:29:00 - 00:46:33:10
The other things are so like,
am I a part of something where I see lives

00:46:33:10 - 00:46:33:23
being changed?

00:46:33:23 - 00:46:38:02
That's really, at the end of the day,
the only thing I need to stay,

00:46:38:08 - 00:46:41:08
you know, to continue to press in
when it's hard.

00:46:41:14 - 00:46:44:00
That's how you know, that's
how you know you're in the right spot.

00:46:44:00 - 00:46:45:02
Yeah. Because some

00:46:46:11 - 00:46:47:09
for some folks

00:46:47:09 - 00:46:50:08
like and I struggled
I've struggled with this before.

00:46:50:08 - 00:46:52:00
Like when the thing that's exciting you

00:46:52:00 - 00:46:55:00
is that the thing
that can tend to be fleeting, like,

00:46:55:19 - 00:46:57:23
you know, arrangements and stuff.

00:46:57:23 - 00:47:01:12
If they're not for the Lord and they're
just for us and it's not worship.

00:47:01:20 - 00:47:04:12
That's why we always say, I mean,
and we ruffle feathers when we say this,

00:47:04:12 - 00:47:08:01
and that's why we that's,
you know, specifically on a

00:47:08:20 - 00:47:11:18
what can be a production dominant podcast.

00:47:11:18 - 00:47:15:22
It's like, guys, maybe, just maybe,
the reason why you're so miserable

00:47:15:22 - 00:47:19:07
is because all you care about
is the faders, the knobs in your console.

00:47:19:08 - 00:47:22:14
Yeah, we're we're just encouraging you
to look up into the room

00:47:22:14 - 00:47:25:03
and see the life change,
because that is the motivating

00:47:25:03 - 00:47:28:03
driving factor
to keep you involved in ministry.

00:47:28:07 - 00:47:30:05
So thank you for sharing that.
That's very wise.

00:47:30:05 - 00:47:30:13
Yeah.

00:47:30:13 - 00:47:34:17
Yeah,
I think we sometimes, like, misunderstand

00:47:34:17 - 00:47:41:00
the word ownership as like as
if this is like truly mine, my boundary

00:47:41:00 - 00:47:45:17
to draw my thing, to own the thing,
to put my own name on it.

00:47:45:22 - 00:47:48:17
Whereas really, ownership is just a really

00:47:48:17 - 00:47:52:06
a better word at stewardship,
a better word of stewardship.

00:47:52:10 - 00:47:57:07
Like, am I willing to do whatever it takes
for the for the, for the sake of

00:47:57:14 - 00:48:02:12
like the church, not just my own ministry,
not whether I become famous or not,

00:48:02:13 - 00:48:06:02
not whether I write some song
that people here occasionally.

00:48:06:12 - 00:48:09:12
And then also on top of that, like,

00:48:09:22 - 00:48:13:06
do you have an identity
outside of your occupation?

00:48:13:07 - 00:48:17:06
You know, are you trying to closely
your occupation to your calling?

00:48:17:13 - 00:48:20:08
You know, there were days that I felt like
I was completely worthless, worthless

00:48:20:08 - 00:48:25:10
because I couldn't reconcile myself
with my current state as a worship pastor.

00:48:25:12 - 00:48:25:21
Yeah.

00:48:25:21 - 00:48:29:02
You know, and I think a lot of production
guys probably feel that same way, too.

00:48:29:04 - 00:48:31:13
Yeah. You know,
you're going to get beat up in church.

00:48:31:13 - 00:48:34:03
You are, especially if you're a production
guy. Yeah.

00:48:34:03 - 00:48:37:04
Just kind of the nature of of the job.

00:48:37:04 - 00:48:41:09
But if you're valued as a human being
and as a guy or a girl

00:48:41:09 - 00:48:44:10
and you understand
your value outside of that thing

00:48:44:10 - 00:48:47:11
or that craft that you do well,
it makes the criticism

00:48:47:11 - 00:48:49:23
toward the craft way
easier to handle them. Yeah.

00:48:49:23 - 00:48:51:15
Yeah, bro.

00:48:51:15 - 00:48:52:15
This has been so good.

00:48:52:15 - 00:48:55:11
Yeah, I am so appreciative.
I know it's hard.

00:48:55:11 - 00:48:58:11
Like you're you're coming on a podcast,
being vulnerable

00:48:58:11 - 00:49:02:10
in thousands of people listening
who you'll probably never talk to.

00:49:02:10 - 00:49:04:07
And so it's I just appreciate

00:49:04:07 - 00:49:08:07
the deposit into the church
and what we're doing here.

00:49:08:07 - 00:49:12:05
And yeah, this has been
this has been great.

00:49:12:06 - 00:49:14:14
Dylan, do you have anything else?
No. It's been awesome.

00:49:14:14 - 00:49:16:19
Thank you guys for having me. Yeah,
of course I'm honored to be.

00:49:16:19 - 00:49:18:03
I love it Hey, y'all.

00:49:18:03 - 00:49:20:14
Thanks for joining us on the podcast.
We'll see you next time.