The MxU Podcast

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I worked at a church. I'm protected.

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There's no way they come after me.
There's no way.

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So these businesses
that go into partnership

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with these churches
and we break contracts,

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we don't pay bills,
do we carry this umbrella of protection

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that we know
they're not going to sue yeah.

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There's this mentality in the church.

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We carry the gospel.

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We carry the name of Jesus everywhere
we go.

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So we're like, we are.

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Yeah.

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Untouchable.

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Oh, man.

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Yeah.

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That church last night,
they locked me in for a they.

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They called me.

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They called me and they said, hey,

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we want your services
for an event inside of our church.

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We talked for about an hour and a half.

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I was talking with the pastor.

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The whole conversation
went by really well.

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Can we record this?

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No, I mean, I don't care.

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Yeah, I mean, I don't care.

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It's it's it's a learning opportunity
for churches to.

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Yeah.

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It's it's it didn't go in.

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Well, so it doesn't matter.

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They called me.

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They wanted services for me.

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So I.

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And the very end of that phone call,
I even said,

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I hope you don't take this the wrong way,
but this is risky for us

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to even go into business
with churches right now

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because of the patterns
we're seeing when we work in churches.

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And here are the risk
and lean them all out.

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We got a partner with church volunteers.

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That's tough.

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We get a partner with church staff.

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That's tough
because you want us to come in

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and do it our way, but we need to honor
you and your house.

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We got to really do it that way.

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So it's just some tension to manager.

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I was honest and honest about payment.

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It's a month goes by. We start.

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They sign a contract, they nickel

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and diming all the way down
and they sign a contract. It's done.

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We we start rendering services.

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I got Andrew balling out in Tucson
cranking that led content,

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graphic packages, the whole deal.

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Robbie is a project lead producer
Robert Pearson from passion.

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He's in all the zoom calls he's meeting.

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But we never received
her first installment.

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So I ran like I'm that's okay.

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And and they also agreed
to a five installment instead of 50% 50%.

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I agreed to a five installment.

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So about three days after the installment,
it was technically do

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I shoot him an email saying, hey,

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what do you need from me for
that first installment?

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Didn't hear back.

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About a week goes by and I get a call
from their project manager.

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She says, we've made a mistake.

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I don't think we're going
to have the money to pay you at all,

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and we need to.

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We need a break.

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We need to get out of this.

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We need a break contract, but we need to
we need to stop services.

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And I was like, well, yeah, well, that's
why contracts exist.

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I was like,
I understand churches go through things.

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The conference is six weeks out

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and they're firing us
because they have not sold tickets.

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I was like, well, I've never heard of a
church panicking six weeks out.

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Typically churches
don't buy stuff until like ten days out.

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That's like proven to be a thing.

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So I was like, well, technically
you still owe 50% of the contract.

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You sign that
and but let me let me get the time.

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Let me collect some data on my end,

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see how much we've
actually rendered in services.

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And we might help you out.
So I have a new invoice.

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I slashed that 50% in half.
More than half.

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So I'm only now discharging my $5,000
kill fee.

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A couple thousand dollars goes to Andrew,
and I'll take a 3000

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just for dealing with them and their BS
and pay Robbie a little bit too.

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Because Robbie did actually work

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three days ago.

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It was my son's invoice.

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I get a call.

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Well, you never we we can't find
the signed contract from your end.

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We I know we signed it, but we never
received a signed contract from you.

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Yeah, the countersigned document.

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And at the time, I was just so flustered.

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It was like a 10:00 or 9:00 phone call.

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I didn't know, I didn't know,

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so I was like, oh my gosh.

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I said, let me hear this, right.

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You're you're you're saying
you're not going to pay me anything

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because I didn't
sign my own contract back to you.

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And she goes, I'm not saying that,
but I'm saying that they are

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trying to pay you $2,000
because that's all they have.

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And so I said, let's,
let's talk tomorrow morning.

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Let's talk at 11.

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So that was yesterday.

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Wrapping the story up, I laid into her,
I was like, why are churches

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are the ones that give us a hard time
when it comes to this stuff?

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This is the reason why I'm continuing on

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dedicating my life to helping churches
is because of leaders like this.

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You want more money, but you have no idea
how to manage the budgets.

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You just burned a bridge with the producer
at passion Conference.

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The creative pastor at southeast.

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Like you want to like, this is no way to
build a business, no way to build a brand.

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Anyways, going on and on and on.

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Do you understand?

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I agree to $2,000 term, by the way
that they're paying over 30 days or 30 net

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and then they're paying the second 1000
over 60 net.

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How big is this church?

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I don't know.

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Look,
I mean, it's pretty big, big production.

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Like, they need net 30 to pay $2,000.

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Net 60, net 60 to pay $2,000. Yeah.

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And,

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so. But I did remind her on that phone
call,

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I said, you're being shown grace today
because

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also in a line Ottoman that contract,
it says government under Tennessee laws.

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Well, Tennessee
law means I don't have to sign a contract.

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Send it back to you.
Why don't you science into me?

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I'm protected by Tennessee laws.
You owe me 50%.

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I'm going to show you grace,
extended grace and only charge you 2000.

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Oh, God.

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What am I going to do?

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So this is an episode
about how churches are cheapskates.

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This. I'm a cheapskate.

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This is an episode of that church
is just aren't honest, I don't know.

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They want churches.

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Churches aren't honest churches.

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Churches are honest. Jesus loves you.

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That's honesty.

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Jesus is the only way of truth in life.
That's honesty.

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Churches want to be business.

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Owners have no idea
how to manage your business.

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What do you mean that
they want to be business owners?

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Well.

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Churches want to run.

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Be these leaders of these churches
want to run these churches as a business.

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They want to take money in
and they want to be able to go

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to operating cost,
you know, all the they they start it.

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But who is managing that?

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And what we have seen
is churches time and time again not

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don't don't know what they're doing.

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I don't know how to say it.

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I don't know I don't know how to say it.

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All churches there's some churches that
are well that are ran very, very well.

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Yeah.

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This is transparent because you're,
because you're, you're you're frustrated.

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You're mad.

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I don't know if hurt is the right word.

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I mean, yeah,
I don't know if hurt is the right word.

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Do churches have an issue running budgets?

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We've talked about this okay okay.

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Can we. So many okay.

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But how do we
how do we make this like productive

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in the sense that.

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Churches it's like such a broad.

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Who are we talking about.

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Like really specifically
because you and I both know

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most churches.

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They're barely able to make ends.

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They don't have conferences. They're like,
you know what I'm talking about?

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Like there's 200,000 churches out there
that this is not an issue in, right? No.

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You don't agree? No. No way.

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This is still an issue in those churches.

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You see an issue
just at large in the church.

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I don't know how much of the story
you're going to share

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that I just shared myself on here.

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All of it.

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But since you dove into it,
small churches don't hire my company.

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Big churches do.

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So that's what we're talking about.

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We have issues with those organizations.

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We don't have issues with small churches,
doesn't have money for conferences.

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Those are the 200. I'm
talking about 200,000 I'm talking about.

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That's I misunderstood you.

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I only had 1000.

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Okay, so I thought I thought you were just
implying thousands.

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Yeah.

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So this is an issue with the big church?

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I don't know, to scale.

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It's all scalable.

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It's hard for me.

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It's hard for me to just say yes
and no to that.

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Yeah, because, I mean, I know, I know,
there are large churches that are

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that are ran very well.

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I know that for a fact.

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I know there are small churches
that are ran very well.

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I know there are large churches that
I do not know how they open their doors

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every Sunday.

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Like if you get into the internals
and you're like, how?

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How did this place function?

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Majority of churches and I

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have brushed up against,
that type of church.

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Like, how does this play stay alive?

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I do not know.

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I know small churches the same way.

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How are your doors open?
How are you staying afloat?

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Just by having one lunch with you.

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How is this place?

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How is this place managing itself?

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So it's hard for me to say yes to to size.

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Because it doesn't matter
if it's 200 or 200,000.

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Yeah, it's still being led by people.

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What I have seen a trend
in, in conversations

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I've had with these young church planners,
they kind of love that,

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not all of them,
but there's some that love that spotlight.

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They love that entrepreneurial spirit.

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And I do agree that you to start a church
or do even lead a church of of

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for the
most part, I do think you need to have

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a little entrepreneurial side in you.

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I think you need to have that business
a little bit to you.

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Like you need to understand
brand, you need to understand a brand

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development and business, and we just need
to understand the power of influence.

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Yeah. And we didn't.

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Yeah. Influence organization skills.

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Budgeting doesn't mean you need to go
be the baddest, hottest brand.

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It doesn't mean you need to keep up
with all the trends.

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You know, like not I'm not talking about.

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Yeah. I'm not talking about people.
I'm talking about your brand.

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The brand that you launched.
The brand that you started.

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Yeah, you're brand. The t shirt
you wear every day.

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That's what I'm talking about.

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You gotta know how to advance that brand.

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But then they get into it and they start.

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They start getting their their money
coming in.

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Well, their brand.

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I mean, it's church, the gospel.

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That's the brand, right.

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Like I don't
I don't understand what you're saying.

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Like your brand I don't
I don't see churches wearing.

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Yeah.

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John 316 shirts I see them wearing.

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Well, that might be
part of the problem too though.

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Like I see them wearing their shirt.

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Yeah, sometimes that's
kind of like a weird problem though, too.

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In the church.

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I'm not I don't I don't know if I agree
that's a problem or not.

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I'm just saying. Yeah.

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As an entrepreneur.

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Yeah.

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In today's age with social media,
that still is very, very powerful.

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Yeah, sure.

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You know, it's
you gotta know how to promote your brand,

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to get your brand out,
to reach, to reach people for the gospel.

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Right? Yeah, we've all heard it.

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I don't know how much we're airing of this
because I did vent quite a bit.

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No, this is we've decided
this is a venting episode.

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That's all this is.

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Okay, so so if you're listening to this,

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please don't be offended.

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I'm not trying to offend you.

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I am opening up that.

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And what's what is
what is I opening to me?

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And I know I've talked a lot,
but you got me going.

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This is your fault.

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I know what,
but it's going somewhere good.

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What is I opening to me is

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I have sat in that same seat

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as a church leader in megachurches

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who have not followed up with

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contracts,
who have tried to get out of signatures,

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who have tried to not pay
when I needed to pay.

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I have done that same thing.

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Also,
whether I was getting influenced by my

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leadership to do it
or I was just doing it because I made it.

00:11:22:07 - 00:11:26:02
Oh, somewhere
and I couldn't, I couldn't be exposed.

00:11:27:02 - 00:11:28:01
And there's this

00:11:28:01 - 00:11:32:00
level of protection that is on me,
and that was on me,

00:11:32:00 - 00:11:35:11
because at the end of the day,
I knew I worked at church.

00:11:35:22 - 00:11:37:03
I'm protected.

00:11:37:03 - 00:11:39:14
There's no way they come after me.

00:11:39:14 - 00:11:40:23
There's no way.

00:11:40:23 - 00:11:43:21
So these businesses that
go into partnership with these churches

00:11:43:21 - 00:11:46:21
and we break contracts,
we don't pay bills, we don't

00:11:46:21 - 00:11:51:10
do we carry this umbrella of protection
that we know they're not going to sue us?

00:11:51:11 - 00:11:52:02
Yeah, yeah.

00:11:52:02 - 00:11:55:02
There's this mentality in the church.

00:11:58:02 - 00:11:58:09
Yeah.

00:11:58:09 - 00:11:59:13
We carry the gospel.

00:11:59:13 - 00:12:01:02
We carry the name of Jesus everywhere
we go.

00:12:01:02 - 00:12:04:01
So we're like, we are.

00:12:04:01 - 00:12:05:01
Yeah. Untouchable.

00:12:05:01 - 00:12:07:07
Yeah, I totally see that.

00:12:07:07 - 00:12:09:12
And we make mistakes.

00:12:09:12 - 00:12:10:09
We're human.

00:12:10:09 - 00:12:12:10
Dylan, give us a break.
We've made a mistake. We.

00:12:12:10 - 00:12:15:11
We hired you. We hired this service.

00:12:15:11 - 00:12:16:04
We hired this.

00:12:16:04 - 00:12:17:16
We've made a mistake. We're human.

00:12:17:16 - 00:12:19:06
So that holds up. So.

00:12:19:06 - 00:12:24:03
So where I think this really, this
conversation actually translates well into

00:12:25:11 - 00:12:27:19
those of you who are listening
and the worship

00:12:27:19 - 00:12:32:03
and tech community and creative community
within the church is.

00:12:34:13 - 00:12:37:18
I think sometimes
that's the rub that we feel

00:12:37:18 - 00:12:41:14
when we're in the church,
working in the church, and

00:12:42:19 - 00:12:46:06
we're talking about a very specific subset
right now,

00:12:46:07 - 00:12:50:18
like we've already
you keep mentioning large megachurch.

00:12:51:05 - 00:12:54:23
I know you're saying it's all churches,
which I agree,

00:12:54:23 - 00:12:58:08
but something I'm finding is that

00:12:58:19 - 00:13:01:19
people are getting turned and burned in

00:13:03:04 - 00:13:06:04
the type of church
that we are describing.

00:13:07:09 - 00:13:08:04
Staff.

00:13:08:04 - 00:13:12:01
Yeah, yeah, I would lean heavier and agree
on staff versus

00:13:12:01 - 00:13:14:15
or burned and turned
I should say sorry. Continue.

00:13:14:15 - 00:13:14:23
Yeah.

00:13:14:23 - 00:13:20:09
On staff versus guest like attendees
because I am only talking about

00:13:20:09 - 00:13:25:13
right now in this episode, the internals
of the business inside of the church.

00:13:25:14 - 00:13:27:07
So staff are a part of that.

00:13:27:07 - 00:13:30:09
Yeah, and we've seen that in churches.

00:13:30:10 - 00:13:33:16
I've seen in churches still today
that have 18 months staff turnover

00:13:33:16 - 00:13:37:10
because they just they get in there
and takes them 18 months to realize, wow.

00:13:37:19 - 00:13:38:10
Yeah.

00:13:38:10 - 00:13:41:18
Which, which you see this over the years

00:13:42:00 - 00:13:44:20
people who've worked in smaller churches
and they're like, man,

00:13:44:20 - 00:13:47:04
I really want to make this
my full time thing.

00:13:47:04 - 00:13:49:14
I feel called to full time ministry.

00:13:49:14 - 00:13:52:04
I'm passionate
about worship and taco ministry.

00:13:52:04 - 00:13:55:05
I wouldn't found this job at a church
that has more budget, usually

00:13:55:05 - 00:13:56:08
larger churches.

00:13:57:07 - 00:14:00:06
I got this
full time job and then they last 18 months

00:14:00:06 - 00:14:03:16
and they have a crisis and they're like,
this is not what I signed up for.

00:14:03:17 - 00:14:05:21
I do not want to be a part of this.

00:14:05:21 - 00:14:07:07
What do I do now?

00:14:07:07 - 00:14:10:07
And I think that's
where a lot of people are today.

00:14:11:08 - 00:14:13:06
We get a lot of people reaching out,
asking

00:14:13:06 - 00:14:16:08
for advice on how to handle scenarios
such as that.

00:14:16:14 - 00:14:20:19
I'm I'm in the church,
I work vocationally in the church.

00:14:20:20 - 00:14:24:20
And I mean, think about the person
who you were speaking to in that church.

00:14:25:02 - 00:14:27:22
They probably agree with you.

00:14:27:22 - 00:14:30:13
Hey, I want to take a quick break
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00:14:30:13 - 00:14:33:22
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00:14:55:09 - 00:14:56:16
Now back to the show.

00:14:56:16 - 00:14:57:18
Oh yeah, they're probably like,

00:14:57:18 - 00:15:00:18
yeah, this is embarrassing
and I'm embarrassed to be a part of this.

00:15:01:00 - 00:15:04:23
Yeah,
he said several times he said that I am

00:15:06:15 - 00:15:08:01
this is not a position that I

00:15:08:01 - 00:15:11:01
want to be in representing my church.

00:15:12:08 - 00:15:15:08
But he also said that he was brought in to

00:15:16:07 - 00:15:18:18
sit in this seat to manage this,
the expectations.

00:15:18:18 - 00:15:19:08
Yeah.

00:15:19:08 - 00:15:22:10
I mean, we see this and this is

00:15:22:15 - 00:15:25:15
just the ugly part of

00:15:26:15 - 00:15:29:15
yeah, some of this is just the ugly part
of, of you know,

00:15:29:15 - 00:15:32:09
I always say you see too much,
you see how the sausage is made.

00:15:32:09 - 00:15:35:09
It can it can it can taste and tarnish

00:15:36:04 - 00:15:36:17
our views.

00:15:36:17 - 00:15:37:05
And that's some

00:15:37:05 - 00:15:40:18
that's a like a daily prayer
for myself as like, not to become cynical.

00:15:41:05 - 00:15:43:22
You know, I'll talk to churches who will.

00:15:43:22 - 00:15:47:19
You know Amex, you sells on a software
product and I'll talk to churches

00:15:47:19 - 00:15:51:22
who are like, hey,
we we renewed our subscription to Miss You

00:15:51:23 - 00:15:55:19
six months ago, and we just now
found out that that happened.

00:15:56:05 - 00:15:58:13
Okay. Well,
first of all, that's very surprising.

00:15:58:13 - 00:16:02:20
How do you go six months without noticing
that you paid, you know, $1,000

00:16:03:01 - 00:16:03:16
for something?

00:16:05:18 - 00:16:08:11
And we just haven't really been using it
as much lately.

00:16:08:11 - 00:16:10:01
And so. Can I ask a question right there?

00:16:10:01 - 00:16:12:07
Yeah, that is what I'm talking about

00:16:12:07 - 00:16:15:13
as a business owners,
which you and I both are, I promise you,

00:16:15:14 - 00:16:18:14
we don't have anything in our books
hitting

00:16:19:03 - 00:16:21:01
for six months I were unaware of.

00:16:21:01 - 00:16:22:08
Yeah, 100%.

00:16:22:08 - 00:16:25:08
Now, some would say.

00:16:26:23 - 00:16:28:02
Yeah, I totally agree

00:16:28:02 - 00:16:32:05
because you're getting ready to take
some would say there's no excuse for that.

00:16:32:06 - 00:16:35:05
Yeah, I know I'm trying to play
the devil's advocate and I'm just like,

00:16:35:05 - 00:16:39:08
no, it's not even worth saying
because that's that's sacrificial money.

00:16:39:12 - 00:16:41:10
Yeah, 100% just thrown out the window.

00:16:41:10 - 00:16:43:19
We don't I'm
not on working on sacrificial money.

00:16:43:19 - 00:16:44:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:44:20 - 00:16:47:14
And so you know that'll happen.

00:16:47:14 - 00:16:50:11
Church will reach out. Hey.

00:16:51:12 - 00:16:55:11
And more often than not, actually,
I feel like it's executive pastors

00:16:55:11 - 00:16:58:11
that I have this conversation with,
which is disappointing.

00:16:58:22 - 00:17:01:08
They're like, just not using it as much.

00:17:01:08 - 00:17:05:09
And so we'd actually like a a refund.

00:17:05:19 - 00:17:08:19
Oh, and it's like,

00:17:09:00 - 00:17:10:22
well,

00:17:10:22 - 00:17:12:04
you know, we don't really do that.

00:17:12:04 - 00:17:14:15
That's even worse.
We don't do that like six months out.

00:17:14:15 - 00:17:15:18
Yeah. From.

00:17:15:18 - 00:17:18:07
Yeah. We just we just don't do that.

00:17:18:07 - 00:17:22:15
And that's when the conversation
really turns and you see a different

00:17:22:19 - 00:17:26:10
I mean, dude, I can show you some emails
that are just like, Holy smokes,

00:17:26:10 - 00:17:28:19
I cannot believe you just wrote me
that email.

00:17:28:19 - 00:17:31:01
And at the end it says Pastor John.

00:17:31:01 - 00:17:33:18
Yeah, I mean,
this happened a couple of weeks ago.

00:17:33:18 - 00:17:34:15
I had a church.

00:17:34:15 - 00:17:36:17
They're like, well,
if you're going to refund it, that's fine.

00:17:36:17 - 00:17:39:17
We'll just tell our bank
that it was fraudulent.

00:17:39:17 - 00:17:41:21
We'll just tell our bank that,
which is a lie.

00:17:41:21 - 00:17:43:15
Yeah. It's just clearly a lie.

00:17:43:15 - 00:17:48:07
And I'm like, screenshot, I will submit
this to your bank when they like.

00:17:48:08 - 00:17:48:15
Yeah.

00:17:48:15 - 00:17:51:14
And I'm like, hey,
that's like that's insulting.

00:17:51:14 - 00:17:56:05
Not just as like a fellow believer, but
like that's how you're going to handle.

00:17:56:20 - 00:17:58:16
That's
how you're going to handle yourself.

00:17:58:16 - 00:18:00:09
Like, what if I wasn't a believer?

00:18:01:10 - 00:18:04:06
Gosh,
what another reason to add to my list

00:18:04:06 - 00:18:07:06
to to want
nothing to do with the local church.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:11:08
And so again, this is not just meant to

00:18:12:14 - 00:18:15:13
I don't want this conversation
to just be a bag session.

00:18:15:13 - 00:18:18:14
I think it informs and calls out

00:18:19:20 - 00:18:21:14
behaviors that I,

00:18:21:14 - 00:18:25:03
I've personally wrestled
with in working in the local church.

00:18:25:08 - 00:18:28:06
I think you've wrestled with
in working in the local church,

00:18:28:06 - 00:18:32:04
we've seen it in a lot of people
listening, see it in front of them

00:18:32:17 - 00:18:35:14
now, and they're asking the question,

00:18:35:14 - 00:18:38:14
what do I do?

00:18:38:15 - 00:18:40:08
What do they do?

00:18:40:08 - 00:18:41:10
How do you handle

00:18:41:10 - 00:18:43:03
if you're working in a church
and you're like,

00:18:43:03 - 00:18:45:13
I do not appreciate the decisions
that are being made.

00:18:45:13 - 00:18:50:04
I do not appreciate how we are dishonoring
relationships that have been made.

00:18:50:07 - 00:18:53:07
I do not appreciate our

00:18:54:16 - 00:18:55:02
it could

00:18:55:02 - 00:18:58:02
be money, lack of wisdom,
and our stewardship over money,

00:18:58:02 - 00:19:01:03
or our lack of wisdom
and our stewardship over people.

00:19:01:03 - 00:19:02:04
Whatever.

00:19:02:04 - 00:19:06:02
You know, this isn't just about churches
not knowing how to handle money.

00:19:06:03 - 00:19:07:02
Like we could get into that,

00:19:07:02 - 00:19:10:07
but there's many other areas
that the church really struggles

00:19:11:10 - 00:19:15:03
wisdom and discernment
and how to handle, you know,

00:19:17:01 - 00:19:17:19
operations.

00:19:17:19 - 00:19:20:19
I should just say, yeah, what do they do?

00:19:21:04 - 00:19:23:01
What does the person do who's in that?

00:19:23:01 - 00:19:26:01
And they see it so clearly

00:19:26:04 - 00:19:27:14
and obviously you don't know.

00:19:27:14 - 00:19:29:06
But I'm curious. Your opinion.

00:19:29:06 - 00:19:32:15
My opinion is I don't know I do know.

00:19:36:00 - 00:19:38:13
You're like, how dare you
I do know, no, it's an opinion.

00:19:38:13 - 00:19:39:18
My suggestion is you.

00:19:39:18 - 00:19:41:16
You can only do one thing in that regard.

00:19:41:16 - 00:19:44:22
You can only control the one thing
you can control, which is you.

00:19:45:09 - 00:19:45:23
What?

00:19:45:23 - 00:19:47:08
What is in my bubble right now?

00:19:47:08 - 00:19:50:00
That I control, that I can do better in.

00:19:50:00 - 00:19:50:14
Okay.

00:19:52:05 - 00:19:52:17
What if.

00:19:52:17 - 00:19:56:09
What if you start to feel like it's it's
compromising your integrity.

00:19:58:00 - 00:19:59:14
You can't ever compromise your integrity.

00:19:59:14 - 00:20:00:21
You gotta protect that at all cost.

00:20:00:21 - 00:20:02:01
Because that's something I hear a lot.

00:20:02:01 - 00:20:03:16
And I've personally wrestled with that.

00:20:03:16 - 00:20:04:12
Like, are you here?

00:20:04:12 - 00:20:07:18
Are you hearing from
who says that church leaders, like,

00:20:07:18 - 00:20:10:18
I'm a part of this church,
I love this church.

00:20:10:22 - 00:20:13:05
And I've been there and I'm
maybe you haven't,

00:20:13:05 - 00:20:14:22
but like, I'm a part of this church.

00:20:14:22 - 00:20:17:01
I love this church.

00:20:17:01 - 00:20:20:01
But the decisions that are being made,

00:20:20:07 - 00:20:23:03
this is ultimately I'm a part of this.

00:20:23:03 - 00:20:27:12
This is a reflection of my integrity for
being around and putting up with this.

00:20:27:13 - 00:20:29:11
The difference is between me
and that person is

00:20:29:11 - 00:20:32:11
that I was too immature to realize
that it was reflecting my integrity.

00:20:32:11 - 00:20:33:15
If they understand

00:20:33:15 - 00:20:36:16
and know it's reflecting their integrity
and they're still willing to do it,

00:20:36:17 - 00:20:38:02
then they're guilty.

00:20:39:07 - 00:20:40:22
Yes. You're
saying they should just peace out there?

00:20:40:22 - 00:20:43:03
Yeah. They're guilty. You.

00:20:43:03 - 00:20:46:03
I can't go rob a bank
or be a part of a group that goes and rob

00:20:46:04 - 00:20:49:04
a bank and sits in the car and says,
I didn't go in because I knew

00:20:49:04 - 00:20:51:23
that would hurt my integrity.
You're guilty.

00:20:51:23 - 00:20:54:21
You're in the car. You were
you were considered a part of that group.

00:20:54:21 - 00:20:58:12
You will have charges pressed against you
because I know about it now.

00:20:58:12 - 00:20:59:11
I can't be at home.

00:20:59:11 - 00:21:02:11
All my boys are like,
hey, we're going out tonight.

00:21:02:16 - 00:21:04:03
I'm like,
all right, see you boys love you.

00:21:04:03 - 00:21:05:14
And I stay at home and they go to a bank.

00:21:05:14 - 00:21:06:16
I'm not guilty because I did not.

00:21:06:16 - 00:21:09:16
I was unaware of that.

00:21:09:21 - 00:21:11:19
Yeah, that person's guilty.

00:21:12:23 - 00:21:15:22
You can't say. Oh,

00:21:15:22 - 00:21:17:18
it could hurt.
This is hurting my integrity.

00:21:17:18 - 00:21:19:13
But guess what? I'm still okay with it.

00:21:19:13 - 00:21:22:07
Don't you feel like sometimes people play
stupid to that, though?

00:21:22:07 - 00:21:22:18
They're not.

00:21:22:18 - 00:21:24:05
They're not playing stupid.
They just admitted it.

00:21:24:05 - 00:21:26:06
No. Okay, sure.

00:21:26:06 - 00:21:28:13
That's more honest, though, than a person
that's like.

00:21:28:13 - 00:21:31:12
I don't know, man. Just.

00:21:31:12 - 00:21:34:00
Sure. I'm over here.

00:21:34:00 - 00:21:36:21
Yeah. Like that's common.
That's very common.

00:21:36:21 - 00:21:39:20
It's still guilty because I know about it.

00:21:40:16 - 00:21:41:14
Right.

00:21:41:14 - 00:21:44:04
Or purposely unknow about it. Sure.

00:21:44:04 - 00:21:47:12
But what my point is, is okay, so
maybe you find yourself in that situation.

00:21:47:12 - 00:21:50:11
Maybe you're like, hey, I know about it.

00:21:50:11 - 00:21:52:15
Okay.

00:21:52:15 - 00:21:55:12
Have you had those conversations

00:21:55:12 - 00:22:00:12
with the right person
that you have the right relationship with?

00:22:00:13 - 00:22:02:10
You go have this conversation
with someone above you

00:22:02:10 - 00:22:04:13
that you don't have a relationship
with. You're gone.

00:22:04:13 - 00:22:07:02
You'll be done in a month,
less than a month.

00:22:07:02 - 00:22:09:19
They'll find a way to get you
out because you bucked up.

00:22:11:05 - 00:22:12:04
So you gotta go find somebody.

00:22:12:04 - 00:22:13:23
You have a relationship with that
maybe a supervisor,

00:22:13:23 - 00:22:15:16
maybe different department
don't cost a vision,

00:22:15:16 - 00:22:18:19
but you trust that person to keep
and you are asking that person for advice.

00:22:18:19 - 00:22:19:12
What should I do?

00:22:19:12 - 00:22:23:00
I feel like my personal integrity
is being jeopardized here.

00:22:23:00 - 00:22:25:04
I am not okay with it.
How do I address it?

00:22:25:04 - 00:22:26:07
How do I get better?

00:22:26:07 - 00:22:28:22
Or how do I make this place better?

00:22:28:22 - 00:22:30:17
You can find out really quickly
in that moment

00:22:30:17 - 00:22:32:12
if you're heading in the right
path or not.

00:22:32:12 - 00:22:36:18
But jeopardizing your integrity
is never worth it for anything.

00:22:36:18 - 00:22:39:17
For anyone, any organization, any church.

00:22:39:17 - 00:22:40:10
Integrity is.

00:22:40:10 - 00:22:43:00
And character is forefront of everything.

00:22:43:00 - 00:22:45:07
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:45:07 - 00:22:46:15
May I say it again?

00:22:46:15 - 00:22:49:02
If you know about it, you are guilty.

00:22:49:02 - 00:22:50:08
Well, I think people

00:22:51:16 - 00:22:52:19
we can all empathize with this.

00:22:52:19 - 00:22:53:15
Sometimes you wrestle

00:22:53:15 - 00:22:57:09
with something internally and you're like,
am I being too sensitive about this?

00:22:57:10 - 00:22:58:15
Am I the problem?

00:22:58:15 - 00:23:01:03
I'm the only one that seemed
to have an issue with this.

00:23:01:03 - 00:23:03:02
Everybody else says it's okay.

00:23:03:02 - 00:23:03:20
Everybody.

00:23:03:20 - 00:23:06:17
Everybody else says, you know what? No.

00:23:06:17 - 00:23:10:09
If we're going to have, you know,
think about this like

00:23:11:19 - 00:23:13:22
Dave Ramsey, a great example,
he tells people like,

00:23:13:22 - 00:23:18:05
hey, if you don't have money to pay your
your creditors.

00:23:20:03 - 00:23:23:03
Tell them, hey, sorry, I can't pay you.

00:23:23:05 - 00:23:25:01
Right. It's kind of a savage bottle.

00:23:25:01 - 00:23:26:08
It's like, that's pretty savage.

00:23:26:08 - 00:23:29:02
Yeah, but he's just like, yeah,
if you don't have the money,

00:23:29:02 - 00:23:30:01
just tell him, like, sorry.

00:23:30:01 - 00:23:33:01
Like gas bill took priority.

00:23:34:03 - 00:23:36:06
Your last on the list this month.

00:23:36:06 - 00:23:37:22
The church kind of tends to.

00:23:37:22 - 00:23:39:16
The church does tend to do that.

00:23:39:16 - 00:23:42:06
That's
what happened to you. Hey, you just

00:23:43:08 - 00:23:43:21
sell tickets.

00:23:43:21 - 00:23:46:08
Whatever. Like we don't have the money.

00:23:46:08 - 00:23:47:14
We have to get all these other things.

00:23:47:14 - 00:23:50:09
You don't get paid. Sorry. Yeah.

00:23:50:09 - 00:23:54:11
And in some respect, I get that.

00:23:54:22 - 00:23:55:21
It's like the money's not there.

00:23:55:21 - 00:23:57:03
The money's not there.

00:23:57:03 - 00:24:01:04
Now, what Dave Ramsey doesn't talk about
and what we're not talking about,

00:24:01:05 - 00:24:04:03
it's like,
okay, well, what we're getting at here is.

00:24:04:03 - 00:24:04:07
Okay.

00:24:04:07 - 00:24:09:05
Well, what habits got you into that place
where you now had to

00:24:10:10 - 00:24:12:02
go against your word?

00:24:12:02 - 00:24:14:23
Yeah. Lack of habits. Yeah. Yeah.

00:24:14:23 - 00:24:18:19
Because people like to think,
oh, well, the bank, they're big.

00:24:18:22 - 00:24:20:21
The big bad bank.

00:24:20:21 - 00:24:21:13
I owe them money.

00:24:21:13 - 00:24:22:07
I'm not going to pay them.

00:24:22:07 - 00:24:25:09
Whatever, Dylan. Big bad business owner.

00:24:25:09 - 00:24:25:20
Big bad.

00:24:25:20 - 00:24:27:21
You know, it's
just people like to project those things.

00:24:27:21 - 00:24:32:02
Well, we're just we're just a small little
Baptist church, and, like, we're,

00:24:32:20 - 00:24:34:05
you know, leave us alone.

00:24:34:05 - 00:24:35:15
We're not hurting anyone.

00:24:35:15 - 00:24:39:02
That tends to kind of
be the the mentality.

00:24:39:20 - 00:24:42:17
I don't know how I got on that tangent,
but all I'm saying is sometimes

00:24:42:17 - 00:24:48:07
in the church we have that check where
we're like, oh, this doesn't feel right.

00:24:48:07 - 00:24:51:05
And everybody else is saying,
oh, this is just what we do in ministry.

00:24:51:05 - 00:24:54:01
They're the last ones to get paid. Yeah,
just how it goes.

00:24:54:01 - 00:24:57:22
I remember working in ministry
and it was like you'd hear things

00:24:57:22 - 00:25:00:22
and you're just like,
oh, I don't like that.

00:25:00:22 - 00:25:02:10
But everyone's doing it.

00:25:02:10 - 00:25:06:20
Even the guy who's like, preaching on
Sunday, who's my spiritual authority like

00:25:08:01 - 00:25:09:06
I do with that.

00:25:09:06 - 00:25:11:12
Yeah.

00:25:11:12 - 00:25:14:11
The value to add for anybody
that manages budgets before you hire

00:25:14:11 - 00:25:18:10
somebody is
look at your budget, build one.

00:25:19:06 - 00:25:23:03
What had happened in this scenario,
what had happened was my opinion

00:25:23:03 - 00:25:29:17
I'm assuming, is they buy
the church that hired us for services.

00:25:29:17 - 00:25:32:17
More than likely
just said we'll figure it out.

00:25:33:00 - 00:25:36:00
We can't afford that,
but we'll figure it out.

00:25:36:18 - 00:25:38:00
That scares me to death.

00:25:38:00 - 00:25:41:00
To manage my budget like that, I'm
going to go buy something

00:25:41:18 - 00:25:43:20
I don't have the money for.

00:25:43:20 - 00:25:45:11
I'll just figure it out.

00:25:45:11 - 00:25:48:11
Like,
I know there's a faith side of things,

00:25:48:14 - 00:25:51:13
but you throw that out the window

00:25:52:04 - 00:25:56:01
because you're months out from your event.

00:25:56:08 - 00:25:59:17
The fact that you just said
you you're not going to get that money

00:25:59:18 - 00:26:01:00
like there's no you.

00:26:01:00 - 00:26:02:07
So you already are letting me know.

00:26:02:07 - 00:26:05:03
You have no faith in this process.

00:26:05:03 - 00:26:08:10
You're panicking and you're scared
because you do not know how to

00:26:08:10 - 00:26:09:06
put together a budget.

00:26:09:06 - 00:26:13:06
You do not know how to look
at your operating cost versus revenue

00:26:13:06 - 00:26:18:03
coming in and say,
we can or can't afford this service,

00:26:18:04 - 00:26:21:16
this platform, this software,
because you have no budget.

00:26:23:06 - 00:26:25:12
That's what scares me.

00:26:25:12 - 00:26:27:18
And this is sacrificial giving people

00:26:27:18 - 00:26:31:17
that give 10% of their entire income.

00:26:33:12 - 00:26:34:10
That's just funny to say.

00:26:34:10 - 00:26:37:09
All out.

00:26:37:09 - 00:26:40:09
It is a little bit tough
when you say it out loud sometimes.

00:26:40:12 - 00:26:43:12
Yeah.

00:26:44:19 - 00:26:46:10
It it leads it like

00:26:46:10 - 00:26:49:19
honestly leads me to like speechless,
which is rare for me.

00:26:50:15 - 00:26:53:15
It is that it is rare for you,

00:26:53:23 - 00:26:56:04
but it is it's sobering

00:26:56:04 - 00:26:59:04
like to to just.

00:27:00:09 - 00:27:03:09
Take a look.

00:27:03:18 - 00:27:05:16
From the outside for a second,

00:27:05:16 - 00:27:10:05
just like take on another perspective
and just recognize, holy smokes.

00:27:10:23 - 00:27:13:23
Like we we need to

00:27:14:12 - 00:27:16:19
yeah,
we need to take on more accountability

00:27:16:19 - 00:27:20:00
and responsibility over the things
that we've been entrusted to.

00:27:20:01 - 00:27:23:01
Money is a huge part of that
in the church.

00:27:25:16 - 00:27:27:13
Yeah, well, if we've made it this far.

00:27:27:13 - 00:27:30:07
Thanks for listening.
Yeah, 100%. Close this out, Dylan.

00:27:30:07 - 00:27:33:22
I mean, we really appreciate
you listening this, you know?

00:27:35:06 - 00:27:37:11
Oh, I feel like I need to say this
at the end of this episode,

00:27:37:11 - 00:27:38:19
because it's some.

00:27:38:19 - 00:27:40:19
Somebody might get here and go.

00:27:40:19 - 00:27:43:11
What on earth

00:27:43:11 - 00:27:45:21
was that supposed to do for me
other than get me

00:27:45:21 - 00:27:48:21
more angry?

00:27:52:05 - 00:27:55:03
That person, this probably this episode
probably wasn't for you.

00:27:55:03 - 00:27:57:21
The person I'm thinking
this episode is for

00:27:57:21 - 00:28:00:21
is the person that feels a little bit
gaslit today.

00:28:00:22 - 00:28:03:22
It's like, I don't.

00:28:04:07 - 00:28:06:11
Am I the only one that sees this?

00:28:06:11 - 00:28:07:21
Feels this way.

00:28:07:21 - 00:28:11:21
I the only one that that works in a church
that's messed up is this no you're not.

00:28:11:22 - 00:28:14:06
All churches are super messy.

00:28:14:06 - 00:28:18:03
And don't let conversations like this
lead you to a place of cynicism.

00:28:18:14 - 00:28:21:08
Because, like, we can sit here
and have honest conversations about

00:28:21:08 - 00:28:23:22
how we're disappointed in our brothers
and sisters in the church and so on.

00:28:23:22 - 00:28:26:14
But like, doesn't mean we're like deuces.

00:28:26:14 - 00:28:28:11
We're done with the church.

00:28:28:11 - 00:28:32:02
And so I think, you know, for those of you
listening in this conversation,

00:28:32:02 - 00:28:36:19
this is meant to help you, help you
not feel alone in the mess that you're in.

00:28:38:02 - 00:28:38:20
Would you agree?

00:28:38:20 - 00:28:41:16
Oh, yeah. Like it's just messy.

00:28:41:16 - 00:28:45:13
Regardless of how close you get to
the core of the of the church, it's messy.

00:28:45:13 - 00:28:50:23
And don't don't, don't become complacent.

00:28:51:00 - 00:28:53:23
Don't just call it a day and go play golf.

00:28:54:11 - 00:28:56:23
Don't just

00:28:56:23 - 00:28:58:17
don't compartmentalize.

00:28:58:17 - 00:29:03:04
I would encourage
you lean in, push the standard, continue

00:29:03:04 - 00:29:06:14
to push towards excellence
and everything that we do

00:29:06:14 - 00:29:10:23
and push towards integrity and everything
that we do in the local church.

00:29:12:16 - 00:29:14:17
Until Lord leads you elsewhere.

00:29:14:17 - 00:29:16:19
So thanks for joining.

00:29:16:19 - 00:29:19:23
If you haven't heard about you,
there's more information

00:29:19:23 - 00:29:22:23
in the description about MSU
and how we help churches like yourself.

00:29:23:05 - 00:29:26:05
Would love to meet with you
if that opportunity arises.

00:29:26:06 - 00:29:28:18
Thanks for joining us on the podcast.

00:29:28:18 - 00:29:29:22
We'll see you next time.